Do I need a hi-torque starter? Help

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

Gang,

I'm having some VERY FUSTRATING problems with the new motor. WHen we started it for the first time, the engine just didn't want to turn over very fast. Eventually after several re-charges of the battery it fired. I bought a brand new optima red-top battery and charged it fully, but I can't seem to get more than 30-60 seconds of cranking out of it before the starter can't turn the motor...

I'm getting spark. I'm getting fuel (plugs are wet) but the motor barely turns over enough to fire the car. I tried for THREE HOURS today to try and start the car.

Crank, fiddle, crank, recharge the battery, crank, fiddle, pull plugs, charge battery...etc...

Do I need a battery bigger than 750cca to turn a 10:1 motor?! Or do I need a higher torque starter? Or both?

I definitely do not like spending two days trying to fire this thing up.. I'm sure the cold and my rather pathetic attempts to setup the webers is partially to blame, but the thing just doesn't want to turn, and if it turns, rarely wants to fire...

HEEEELP!

dean · 03-19-2003, 08:10 PM

If you are talking about a gear reduction starter. They turn the motor over slower. I think you have some other problem

dean · 03-19-2003, 08:11 PM

Check all the starter and battery and ground connections

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

I'm talking about this one:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911M/POR_911M_electr_pg7.htm#item13

Battery is new. Ground strap is good. I checked it and cleaned contacts before installing the engine.

THe motor just kinda turns over very slowly for the first couple revolutions, then picks up a bit, but a fully charged battery is only good for 30-60 seconds of cranking.

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

For what it's worth, I did an archive search and found Bill V, Jack and Thom are both using stock early starters with their 3.6 conversions.

Tom

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

That IS interesting... Guys, what cca rating does your battery have?

Thanks for looking emcon!

RoninLB · 03-19-2003, 09:17 PM

Hey Chris... do you know what the current draw is by the starter after a battery recharge.. or does the positive cable feel warm after you running the battery down?

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

I have an Optima battery and a high-torque starter now, although the old one worked jsut fine. A 3.6L has 11.x:1 compression.

Jack Olsen · 03-19-2003, 10:55 PM

I also have the high torque starter. For me, the old one turned the motor over just fine, but the heat of the transaxle (which wasn't cooled at the time) cooked the starter.

It probably would have cooked the high torque starter as well, eventually.

I'd make sure there isn't something binding in the tranny or motor.

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

Jack, First thing I thought of. THe motor still turns over pretty well by hand...

It's strange that the starter would kill the battery that quickly... From what I remember from the other day, even when I hooked up a second battery (can't use a booster because of the electromotive) it DIDN'T make a difference... That's got me thinking that the starter is going bad.

I'm now recalling from last years season that when the motor was hot, the starter would occasioally not work either...

RoninLB · 03-20-2003, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JackOlsen
It probably would have cooked the high torque starter as well, eventually.

I have a high torque starter which is supposed to have windings that can handle more heat than the Bosch.. but the solenoid lube got toasted and I have to clean and re-lube it/hot start problem. I'll probably use the synthetic suspension/wheel bearing grease which can deal with higher heat than routine grease.......Ron

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

Another interesting point, I also loosened the alternater belt by one shim which made a noticeable difference in the ability of the engine to crank... WOuld this also indicate that the current starter was not performing very well?

RoninLB · 03-20-2003, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoninLB
Hey Chris... do you know what the current draw is by the starter after a battery recharge.. or does the positive cable feel warm after you running the battery down?

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

I'll check that this morning Ron, thanks... I'm going to clean and check resistance on my ground path as well.

What would a warm cable indicate?

RoninLB · 03-20-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cstreit
What would a warm cable indicate?

sometimes I don't always have a current draw gauge around.. so I'll feel for heat in the positive cable, which will indicate high current draw. like the starter windings are sagging/kaput starter..

and the solenoid does draw enough current to get warm under constant useage.. so toasted solenoid interior grease could clog it up when warm, or dirty solenoid contacts.. and maybe a jump from the tub ground directly to the starter may help.. I did a neurotic starter ground install to prevent that from happening..

also the positive cable battery connector could be disjointed internally at the connector.. like try a direct battery jump to the starter before you spend big bucks replacing a relatively new starter.. keep sniffing around

rvanderpyl · rvanderpyl's Garage

Yank all your plugs and try cranking, the starter should turn over very easily and quickly, if it doesn't then try removing the alternator belt completely since you mentioned that loosening it made a difference, if it still doesn't crank fast, then it sounds like your starter is shot.

Rot 911 · 03-20-2003, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rvanderpyl
Yank all your plugs and try cranking, the starter should turn over very easily and quickly, if it doesn't then try removing the alternator belt completely since you mentioned that loosening it made a difference, if it still doesn't crank fast, then it sounds like your starter is shot.

Good advice. This is what I would do, before I did anything else.

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

I will try that first.

Again, I do remember that last year when the motor was hot (and consequently the starter itself) , it sometimes wouldn't even turn over the stock motor...

RoninLB · 03-20-2003, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cstreit
I will try that first.

Again, I do remember that last year when the motor was hot (and consequently the starter itself) , it sometimes wouldn't even turn over the stock motor...

sounds like cocky poo solenoid internal grease to me.. and if Warren says that they should be a maintence item, then that's the story

cstreit · cstreit's Garage

Okay, I turned over the motor for 15 seconds without plugs or spark...

It drained the battery enough that the re-charger is taking 10 minutes to recharge it.

Positive cable is not warm.