Cam dowel removal and 4,5,6 chain off sprocket

[mike sampsel]

So on my 1,2,3 side, my cam dowel does not fall out as defined in Wayne’s book.
Is there a trick to removal?


Also, cannot get enough slack in chain to remove it from cam sprocket on 4,5,6 side. I assume I can remove it after I get the chain cover off the 1,23 side?

[john walker's workshop]

It's a key, not a dowel. Pack a shop rag in the case hole and carefully tap it out from the end with a screwdriver and small hammer. It will rotate out a bit on the far end where you can grab it with sidecutters, or it may just fall out.

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

It's a key, not a dowel. Pack a shop rag in the case hole and carefully tap it out from the end with a screwdriver and small hammer. It will rotate out a bit on the far end where you can grab it with sidecutters, or it may just fall out.

Thanks, so knowledge here is great! Glad I asked. To clarify JW, your saying put a rag down in the red area, to catch the key when if/it “falls”?

[jons911]

Like John said, it's a key and the groove in the camshaft is called a key way. Basically, put a rag in any open hole in the chain housing. The key is small and can easily fly into the engine case if you aren't careful. So in your picture, definitely put rags to the right where the chain comes from the case. I used a small flat head screwdriver, as in the small ones used on glasses, and placed it on the front face of the key and gave it some light taps with a hammer. The bottom of the key (side that goes in to the key way in the cam) should be curved, so the flat head will start to follow that curve down into the groove and help to leverage the key out. If that's a bit confusing, google 911 camshaft key, and it should make more sense.

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by jons911

Like John said, it's a key and the groove in the camshaft is called a key way. Basically, put a rag in any open hole in the chain housing. The key is small and can easily fly into the engine case if you aren't careful. So in your picture, definitely put rags to the right where the chain comes from the case. I used a small flat head screwdriver, as in the small ones used on glasses, and placed it on the front face of the key and gave it some light taps with a hammer. The bottom of the key (side that goes in to the key way in the cam) should be curved, so the flat head will start to follow that curve down into the groove and help to leverage the key out. If that's a bit confusing, google 911 camshaft key, and it should make more sense.

Okay thanks, first tear down for me learning some of this the easy way. Not all though. I get the idea now, thanks!

[jons911]

Glad to hear it. I'm in the same boat, learning as I go, as I'm putting my first engine back together right now.

[Catorce]

I am not trying to be a jackazz, but if the removal of that key is stumping someone, perhaps an engine rebuilld is not the best idea. Wayne's book was well done, but it assumes that you have a basic mechanical aptitude to begin with and I think it has prompted more folks to attempt a rebuild that really had no business doing so.

It should also be obvious that small parts like the key are able to fall inside the motor via the chain box, that is what the rag is for.

Yes, this is a Q&A forum, but some of these questions are so basic as to be shocking.

[911pcars]

+1. A first time 911 rebuild can be an expensive exercise if not done correctly. Suggest rebuilding a VW air-cooled engine first, or D&A a practice engine. Learn how to read a micrometer, vernier caliper and other precision measuring tools and techniques. Incorrect assumptions, lack of experience and mistakes will have fewer consequences.

[mike sampsel]

maybe Wayne’s book is great. Says nothing about keyway just dowels at teardown. This tip about using wire cutters to remove was great, Just making sure I understand. And well my business and my money. Now that I’m this far in, shocking comments are not really helpful to me, thanks.
And the comment about VW first, maybe you should post your own topic about it in the engine rebuilds thread, title it: rebuild a VW engine prior to a 911. Or before you buy Wayne’s book.

[911pcars]

Wayne's book is about building and modifying 911 engines. It's not an instruction manual on how things work. It assumes prior knowledge for the DIY owner (4-stroke cycle everyone?). That falls onto the person doing the work. Factory repair manuals are model specific and downloadable from the PAG website. Review those as well as other Porsche-specific titles and general engine rebuilding books to get a better idea of rebuilding steps, techniques and pitfalls.

Yes. It is most helpful to have a basic knowledge of mechanics, physics, plumbing and electricity. The Boy Scout motto applies here: "Be Prepared". Remember the first 16 penny nail you drove into a piece of wood? Success? If so, excellent.

One can replace, rebuild, and diagnose using the "by-the-numbers" technique, but that assumes every step described will be "normal", whatever that means. The first lesson after amassing the basic and extended tools necessary is "lefty, loosey; righty tighty", and it continues from there. I'm not trying to be glib or disparaging, just experienced with a random group of car people, whom I applaud, who have a wide range of skills and motivated to have their own successful, hands-on experience.

Sherwood

[john walker's workshop]

We all gotta start somewhere. Kudos to you for tackling a 911. Everything about them is already here in the forum, ad nauseam. Best to ask if there's something you wonder about before diving in. That's the smart thing to do. That's what this forum was always about.

[Catorce]

Let me add to what Sherwood is saying here. The proper way to remove a key from a keyway is the same whether that key is embedded in the timing sprocket on the front of an LS motor or whether it's in the cam of a 911.

The way to remove a pulley, pop open a ball joint, install a face seal, and seat a gasket are also examples of common automotive tasks no matter what the platform.

The REASON there is no explanation as to how to remove this key is because Wayne ASSUMES anyone who go this far should be able to do it without explanation.

This is why I suggested you should probably stop at this stage and enlist the help of someone who has wrenched before because you do not have the skill level, even if you get through Wayne's book, to know what the difference between right and wrong looks like.

No one is knocking you, you just have to start small and a 911 teardown is NOT small. There are 1000000 pitfalls in a 911 build and to be honest, Wayne does not mention many of them in his book, because many of them are basic automotive tasks that nevertheless require skill.

[boyt911sc]

Mike,

Do not be discouraged by the negative comments you have received from some people. They have the experience and skill you have not attained at this stage. I completely agree with their comments. I think too, that you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer but we could be all wrong. Do not be offended. Think it this way, all you need is for someone to help and guide you do this engine tear down.

Like what JW said, you have to start some where. Some people are just “natural” and could pick up the tricks and techniques needed to do the job with minimal help. Others takes a lot of effort to understand how things are done.

As an example, removal of this woodruff would come easy and simple to others. This is something anyone doing a 911 engine rebuild would know and understand. But not everyone are gifted and could visualize how simple it is done. If you want to succeed in this kind of undertaking is to understand what experienced people are telling you. You are posting in this forum simply because you needed help. And for that, I give you a positive mark.

Lastly, learn to develop your mental and problem solving skills. Do not rely too much for help. Remember, this is just the engine tear down, and wait when you start rebuilding the motor. It is not going to be easier. Stop and regroup yourself.

You could do it only if you help yourself. Being spoon fed at this stage is not a good sign. You started this project with a very poorly set up tools and equipment. And it seems that every step is a struggle for you. Find a mentor that you feel comfortable to call or contact. There are several members in this forum that could help you. Good luck.

Tony

[Mike Billings]

When you re-install that key, ensure it is exactly level or tilted very slightly towards you.

If it is tilted slightly away from you, the sprocket will not go on.

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by Catorce

Let me add to what Sherwood is saying here. The proper way to remove a key from a keyway is the same whether that key is embedded in the timing sprocket on the front of an LS motor or whether it's in the cam of a 911.

The way to remove a pulley, pop open a ball joint, install a face seal, and seat a gasket are also examples of common automotive tasks no matter what the platform.

The REASON there is no explanation as to how to remove this key is because Wayne ASSUMES anyone who go this far should be able to do it without explanation.

This is why I suggested you should probably stop at this stage and enlist the help of someone who has wrenched before because you do not have the skill level, even if you get through Wayne's book, to know what the difference between right and wrong looks like.

No one is knocking you, you just have to start small and a 911 teardown is NOT small. There are 1000000 pitfalls in a 911 build and to be honest, Wayne does not mention many of them in his book, because many of them are basic automotive tasks that nevertheless require skill.

Good point, maybe I have a secret guru. Or I like taking risks. And allegedly a retired Porsche mechanic is nearby. If your not interested in helping me, I get it. But, it’s too late to stop you see, my pistons and cylinders are off (at least on 4,5,6). I’m pressing on getting heads ready for a machinist. I already have 3.2 cylinders and JE pistions too etc and all the parts bought. So I’m not quitting just yet.

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by Mike Billings

When you re-install that key, ensure it is exactly level or tilted very slightly towards you.

If it is tilted slightly away from you, the sprocket will not go on.

Good advice, I’ll add it to my notes, thanks

[911pcars]

While there are many experienced wrenches on this forum, bulletin boards also contain anecdotal opinions, wives' tales and information not steeped in fact (not this thread). The internet is the Daddy of Pelican. As such, standard operating procedures (SOP) and factual information tends to rise to the surface.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=fXgBXafzF9ja-gSymo74AQ&q=how+to+remove+a+woodruff+key%3F&oq=how+to+remove+a+woodruff+key%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l7.2994.9855..10150...0.0..0.96.2244. 29......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i131i67j0i67j0i20i26 3j0i10.O5hMRCn0bCI

Sherwood

[mike sampsel]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

While there are many experienced wrenches on this forum, bulletin boards also contain anecdotal opinions, wives' tales and information not steeped in fact (not this thread). The internet is the Daddy of Pelican. As such, standard operating procedures (SOP) and factual information tends to rise to the surface.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&ei=fXgBXafzF9ja-gSymo74AQ&q=how+to+remove+a+woodruff+key%3F&oq=how+to+remove+a+woodruff+key%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l7.2994.9855..10150...0.0..0.96.2244. 29......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j35i39j0i131j0j0i131i67j0i67j0i20i26 3j0i10.O5hMRCn0bCI

Sherwood

Thanks, was an interesting tidbit for sure. Sometimes explanations without pictures start talking about front and back etc, pictures are good.

Good news is there is a key on the crank to be removed and it should now be easy.

[yelcab1]

Press on Mike. Some of those keys can be a ***** on Porsches and other makes.