Another 3.2 wanting to go turbo...

[Wayne 962]

"ALOT of HP, and that is what I want, alot of usable HP for track and highway acceleration."

A good place to start, but you must remember that all the HP in the world is useless if it all comes on around 6K or so. The 917-10s had turbo lag problems galore, despite two turbos. If you tweak your engine to get and tolerate 400 HP, you will undoubtedly have to make some sacrifices on the lower end. You will probably have significant turbo lag - something that most people don't like to drive with. Even if you hot rod the engine with GE80 cams and high compression pistons, you will push your power band further outwards.

I personally like broad-range power (which you didn't specify you wanted, but is important to me). With that in mind, you can really only get that power/torque out of increased displacement (or a cleverly setup twin-turbo).

My suggestion to reach this goal within $10K? Get a 3.6L engine, and toss a supercharger on it. You could probably squeeze 350 out of it for $10K, assuming that you pick up a 3.6 for $6.5K. You can always turbo-charge later on. There really is no substitute for displacement in my mind, although you may be limited by race class restrictions...

-Wayne

[RickM]

If you want to get big horsepower I've been told that the 3.2 platform is better than the 3.6. This from the Proto guys who just finished a Stage 2 twin turbo set-up for a buddy of mine with a 993.

[juan ruiz]

Just OUT OF CURIOSITY Has ANYONE EVER seen a 911 supercharged with 500hp+ you may remenber, that was my original plan 5 years later I havent found anyone with this numbers ,perhaps Nat Champ? I will like to know if someone has accomplish this numbers?

[frencjas]

Wayne: A broad power band DEFINATELY appeals to me, which is actually one of the reasons I typically prefer NA engines. Turbocharging will allow me to get lots of additional power from my engine, at what I believe is a more reasonable cost than any other route. A 3.6 with supercharger, that would end up costing MORE as I would want to know that the inside of the engine is OK.

I figure (and correct me if I'm wrong) that by turboing my engine in stock compression (with beefed up internals), I should be able to retain at least stock power characteristics down low and build HP and Torque significantly from there to redline.

I'll probably start with the engine rebuild, and go from there, Unless I find a wicked deal on a 3.6 turbo in the meantime.

Thanks
Jason French

[rick conrath]

Look for either a 3.3 or 3.6 at the right price. With the right setup, a 3.3 can deliver way more than is streetable, so I would not get caught up in the bigger is better mentality. Each engine has some strengths and some associated weaknesses. Go with the setup that is the easiest to maintain and find parts for in your budget. I toyed with the idea of the supercharger. It was a little more money, with less history. It is also pretty hard on the components off the line as opposed to the turbo. Before I did anything, I would ride in or drive a few high hp turbos to see if that is the direction you really want to go. I love my turbo, but there is always a project under the hood. Make sure that maintenance is something that you like and want to do.

[Jack Olsen]

HP figures can be misleading. Juan has built a monster of a car, that continues to be reliable (hopefully, for a very long time). But his quarter mile numbers were a little underwhelming, if I remember right. No slight on Juan, who's built an incredible machine, but the characteristics of a turbocharged motor are something you've got to factor into a modified car's performance.

I'm going up against a field of cars in a 7-day time trial event next month, and the contender I'm least concerned about is a turbocharged 800-hp Supra. Big HP certainly helps lap, 0-60. and quarter-mile times, but it isn't the only factor in how a car drives.

[frencjas]

Good point, Jack. I can see how I've gotten myself caught up in the HP hype. There will (almost) always be someone with a faster car, I would just like to minimize those instances. I was at first considering a 3.6 swap as you have, but I can barely justify it for the HP gains over my 3.2 for the expense. I'll just keep researching until I talk myself into something in particular.

Thanks,
Jason French

[Mike the mechanic]

Jason, the most reliable hp you can achieve is with a large displacement N/A engine, mainly because of less mechanical parts that can break down or wear out.

One option is a nice 3.6, a 1995 would be best in my opinion. This engine with some little add ons may get you at the 300hp mark, or near it. You can't beat that for long term reliability. 300 hp in a light car should not be under-estimated.

Second option, in my opinion is to turbo your existing engine. I know people say to swap a 3.3, no disrespect, or offence, but you would be going backwards by doing that. What does a 3.3 turbo have that your engine doesn't already? I'll tell you. A 3.3 has a bad induction and injection system compared to a 3.2. A 3.3 has smaller ports in the head than a 3.2. You know what people do to modify 3.3's? They install Carrera 3.2/SC cams, they install a 3.2 intake and electronic injection, they port the heads which come out similar to stock Carrera heads, etc. The 3.2 has the same connecting rods and crank as a 3.3. A 3.3 with no turbo on it will make about 130hp. Your Carrera makes 210-220 with no turbo.
The only place I think a 3.3 turbo engine should be swapped into, in my opinion is an SC, which has the CIS already.
There may be people who disagree, but the Motronic system CAN supply an engine with over 600hp. Many people doubted Juan, even critisized, but he prevailed.
My car made almost 400 crank hp without even opening the engine, on 10 psi of boost. Tracked it with no problems. Opened up the engine to rebuild for twin turbo and found everything within spec, even sold my stock p/c's to someone who thanked me for selling him almost new looking pistons and cylinders! I turbocharged a client's 200,000km Carrera, without touching anything in the engine, without even removing the engine, and he now has 220,000kms, with no problems what-so-ever. This car is tracked almost every dry weekend the track is open. Anyone who went to the DEW at Mont. Tremblent, Quebec will know the black Carrera that was passing 930's and 993's.

Also, don't forget, a well designed turbo system will feel like a large N/A engine. My Carrera felt like a stock Carrera up until I hit 3000 rpm, when the power curve climbed rapildly. This is due to the relatively high compression. Also, you don't need twin plug, even the 993tt is single plug.

Whatever you do, with the help of this forum you can probably do it yourself! Have fun!

[Mike the mechanic]

Forgot to add, from the experiences of a few 3.6 swaps I've done, a 3.6 feels MUCH faster than a 3.2. You shouldn't just campare peak hp of the two engines, you have to get a ride in an early car with a 3.6, it's something you got to feel. 3.6's are beautiful engines.

[rick conrath]

Mike...I think you are comparing apples to oranges. There are actually a few more differences between a turbo 3.3 and the 3.2 The composition of the heads for one. I also don't know if I would go so far as to claim that the CIS is bad compared to the Carrera injection, it's just mechanical. I believe the post started by expressing a desire for 400 hp. Explain to me how that is possible with a normally aspirated 3.6 in a dollar to dollar comparison with a 3.3 If you are seeking reliability then go for the 3.6. If you are going purely for budget, then build up your 3.2
If you are looking for plus 400 horsepower, then the turbo shines. Why is it that you are going to a TT setup?

[Mike the mechanic]

Rick, yes, I am knowingly comparing apples to oranges, mainly because these are options Jason has. The quest for more power shouldn't be narrow minded.
Also, I never stated and don't even think it's possible to get 400hp easily out of a 3.6. My main point concerning the 3.3 is that he would be taking a step in the wrong direction by swapping a 3.3, and I do stand by this. If he would spend the 10 grand it would cost to just buy the 3.3, he could have 400hp out of his 3.2, and the 3.3 would have only 300hp. Brining the 3.3 upto 400 would cost him another $5000. Think about it.
I am going with a TT setup because it's cool to say I have a twin turbo, and it will be a nice accomplishment for me to achieve.

[75'930cab]

Here is a 3.3 turbo on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2408719709

[rick conrath]

He has options, many options as you say. You can get a 3.3 for much less than 10k though. We are really talking about piston and cylinder combinations here on an interchangeable core,no real cost difference there. If he is trying to convert the 3.2 to a turbo motor, then the cost climbs through the roof and the similarities end. How are you getting 400 hp out of a 3.2 without spending at least 5k as well?

[Mike the mechanic]

The fact that he already has a 3.2 motor helps out a great deal. If he spends loads of money to buy a 3.3 and ends up with a stock engine, he might as well put the same money into his engine, and he'll be better off.
Don't want to argue here, I've been there and done that so I'm not just talking out of my arse.
Another point to consider concerning the 3.3 and 3,2 injection system is the fact that if in the future, he decides to up the hp, the CIS will top out at 450 due to fuel flow and air flow limitations of the CIS and intake manifold design. Why do you think that all the big boys use Carrera intake manifolds and electronic injection? It's easier and cheaper to start with a 3.2 than a 3.3.

[Bruce M.]

I guess I'm a "big boy" (700+ to the crank at 1.4 bar. 570+ ft-lbs to the wheels--with over 400 ft-lbs by 4000 rpm, by the way), and Mike is right. I started with a 3.3, and immediately went with a 3.2 intake and aftermarket (Motec) engine management. I also stroked the car with a 993 crank and bored it a bit with 98mm pistons, for displacement of 3.45.

My car is a single turbo, and with all due respect to Wayne, it is extremely easy, running comparatively miniscule boost pressures, to top 400 hp to the crank on a single turbo working off a 3.3 long block. In fact, I'd bet you could stick with CIS, do headers and a turbo, maybe some wastegate control and a enrichment device for safety, and you're there, for well under $10,000.

Now, the interesting question for me is how much is enough. The answer, for me, is when your power and torque starts outpacing your car's ability to put it down to the ground. 400 to the crank will not be enough for you, if hp/tq (torque is the really good stuff)-mania is in your blood. But 600 might be too much, in that about 100 of that is going to dissolve into melted rubber without some extremely radical suspension and tire tweaks and/or some expert modulation of the throttle. [This is assuming, by the way, that you want to do more than drive your car in a straight line, on slicks, 1/4 mile at a time. For that kind of stuff, the tire and suspension (like bars) tweaks make a certain kind of sense.]

Example: if I've got the boost twisted up, and I'm cruising along in second in the dry, pointed straight ahead, and I floor it, in about 1-3 seconds I'm fishtailing pretty damn good. It will do that in third as well. And fishtailing at those speeds is nasty. If the weather and my tires are warm, it happens less, but it still happens, and without real warning. And that's with Michelin Pilot Sports ZR315s on 11 inchers in the back.

My own hop-up experience has taught me some valuable lessons. Be careful what you wish for, because with enough money and patience, you'll get it. What will you get? A phenomenally powerful car, but one that will FAR outstrip your ability to drive it well. Now, if you can stay alive and keep the car in one piece, you'll get closer to learning how to tap what it can do, but basically every time you go out on the road you'll be riding in an animal that will bite you and everyone else around you in the ass, big-time, if you screw up. If you're on the track, at least, all you can do is hurt yourself (and hopefully not a DE instructor) and your car.

Of course, every car is a potential weapon, but a hopped-up 930 is a special beast.

In my 20's, nothing would have been better. In my 40's, I'm not so sure--depends what day you ask me.

[beepbeep]

3.3 engines suck pretty good. I second Mike's opinion. Head ports are narrow (to boost gas velocities and low-end torque), plenum is badly designed (being made too flat so it can fit, it flows unequally to cylinders), CIS sucks (barn-door being in the way), headers suck (1,5 meter of combined plumbing doesn't help turbo-lag, even less so with thermal reactors).


400 is nice number. I say:
- Go for turbocharged 3.2 (your own engine)
- Lower C/R to ~1:8 (changing pistons works)
- Go for aftermarket injection (Motoronic can be used but isn't worth the fiddle) , preferaby MAP-based (SDS is cheap, has direct-fire)
- Single turbo, headers (KKK K27 works nice)
- Biggish intercooler
- If money left, do dual-plug thing (more knock-headroom)

This way, using your own engine and doing plumbing yourself you'll hit 400 HP with ease at moderate boost pressures (under 1 bar).
Tranny will protest but it will hand on for a while , depending on how many wild starts you make.

In your chassis , it will be seriously quick car.

[rick conrath]

Yeah I have heard that CIS is only good to 450. When I get to that point, I will pull the Carrera injection sytem out of the bag in the basement and go from there. Again, piston and cylinder swaps using the same basic engine core is the heart of the matter here, using a "cost effective" induction and engine management system. There are those that argue for the use of modified turbo heads (not 3.2), since the metal is slightly different (more heat resistant) and less prone to cracking. Someone please describe the overwhelming $$$ value in going to a modified Carrera injection syetem to support a Turbo on either the 3.2 or 3.3 below 400-425hp. its just not there. Add up the parts labor and dyno time required to dial it in, and the CIS looks more effective. Go above the 450 hp threshold and we are all just flapping our gums talking about false economies here. Custom is cutom and certainly not in the 10k range. Speak in real dollars.