Help: Problems with recently purchased 3.0
 

Hi Pelican:

I recently (about a year ago) purchased a used 3.0 with a freshly rebuilt top end from a well known builder on this forum. I paid this builder 16K to rebuild my 901 transmission and install this 3.0 (with PMO carbs). The car was given back to me with a some slight hesitation, and I was told to install some different idle jets. That did not fix the hesitation, and it's the least of my problems right now.

A month later I noticed that oil was leaking out of the exhaust port from cylinder 3. When I called him and asked what was going on, he said there was no valve stem seals installed. This was an old "racers" trick to prevent sticking valves. I said ok.

Fast forward about a year and 1000 miles later. The car has started to burn more oil than normal, and the puff of smoke on start up has turned into a light consistent flow.

This past weekend, I decided to dump the oil and check all the valves. When I drained the tank, the plug had a mound of fine metal on it. I then proceeded to dump the sump.

This is where it gets interesting. In the sump was a rocker foot and a bunch of shredded metal. I immediately panicked and tore the valve covers off. I checked every rocker and to my surprise, none of them were missing feet. So this must have come from a previous "money shift" prior to my ownership.

Today I text the builder some photos and asked him to call me. He does, and explains the history. Sure enough, the motor had prior damage. The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.

My question is, am I being unreasonable to think that we should open this case up and check to make sure this motor doesn't have excessive wear on rings, walls and bearings? This builder is a friend of a friend, and we established a friendship after he rebuilt my 3.2 years ago. If this was your motor, what would you do? What would you demand?

Here are a few of the photos from what I found:

In the sump
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/traves/48409900396/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_8422"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48409900396_e0d5aba3b5_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="IMG_8422"></a>

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/traves/48409924366/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_8439 2 copy"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48409924366_bf4a689e15_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="IMG_8439 2 copy"></a>

About 50-60 of these shiny pieces in the filter.
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/traves/48409924216/in/dateposted-public/" title="metal copy"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48409924216_d1857e24bf_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="metal copy"></a>

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/traves/48410069287/in/dateposted-public/" title="IMG_8437 copy"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48410069287_70d78dd18f_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt="IMG_8437 copy"></a>

how much "top end" was it? case split and everything?
and "top end" is no guarantee for anything unfortunately, things (mistakes) happen.

never mind, the oil(-smoke) issue must be solved.
was there a contract signed?

I'd talk to him again, leak down test, valve check... then let's see on.

I don’t have the answer to your questions, but I certainly sympathize with your situation.

As for responsibility, I’d I imagine a lot depends on how the engine was first represented to you – used, rebuilt, good as new, etc. Does buying a used motor (albeit with a fresh top) include accepting a risk that something might be in the oil sump?

As for what to do, would a compression and leak-down test offer some insight? If the numbers are to specification and engine is running well, how big a problem is this?

I must quickly admit that I’m out of my depth here and can’t offer subjective advice. But I’m very interested in what our pelican engine experts will suggest.

Thanks for the feedback. The case was not split. Only head work to repair "money shift." I understand that buying a used engine is a gamble, but I also believe that it shouldn't include parts from an old break.

He's a friend, and there was no contract. I trusted him. I guess this is where we find out how tight our friendship is.

Not cool, some of those pieces look like plastic from chain ramp. I would tear down motor and inspect before it's totally destroyed.

I'd be pretty annoyed at having spent $16K on a motor with these issues, but I think we need more info. to come to a conclusion. Keep in mind the flow path for oil in analyzing the debris coming out of the engine. A few things to keep in mind:
- Since the case was not split in the rebuild, the debris in the sump can be residual from the broken rocker. Large debris in the sump will never make it out of the sump since the pump screen stops it.
- I don't see a ton of stuff in your filter. Some flakes could be explainable if your top end rebuild included new rod bearings (break-in debris).
- Do you have a pic of the metal you saw on your engine and tank drain plugs? I'd be more worried at seeing a lot of debris on your tank drain plug, since that is after the oil filter (assuming stock oil system).
- What did the oil in your drain pan look like? If you have accelerated bearing wear, you should see a visible quantity of fine metal in your oil, especially coming out of the engine sump as this is unfiltered oil.
- Do confirm whether the builder changed the rod bearings as part of the top end rebuild. A money shift bad enough to break a rocker could also nick a rod bearing and lead to issues later.

Just my 2 cents.

Scott

If it were my engine, I'd probably split the case do a full tear down. Look on the bright side...3.2SS?

16k - so figure 4k on the rebuild of the 901 and 12k on a 3.0 with a fresh top end. And all installed. That seems reasonable.

He probably will assist in the rebuild but if a motor isn't new, then you take certain risks certainly.

I bought a 3.2 that I knew was tracked. I decided to split based on that and I'm glad I did as I found a few things that could have caused issues down the road.

I definitely wouldn't go scorched Earth. If anything, it's a hard lesson learned. Retain the friend, especially your closer friend, and keep everyone happy. Take the high road - based on that he will probably bend over backward to assist in the rebuild.

One more thing - the oil puff on startup wouldn’t bother me, but a constant flow of smoke would for a fresh motor. How much oil is it burning?

Thank-you for this. I appreciate it. The ad did not state the rod bearing were done. There are quite a few of those flakes. You're only seeing one example.

The drain plug metal was very fine, what you would normally find on a drain plug, but significantly more quantity.

I don't know how much oil it's burning, I only have 1K miles on it. I just see a more consistent stream now.

Scorched earth was one of my favorite games. I have no plans to do that, and as you can see I don't call him out. I'm trying to understand what I can reasonably expect. What is the win-win for both of us. Right now, he's gone silent.

No valve stem seals is an old racer trick? Excuse me?

I've read this before. Not with 911's but on other HP engine builder forums. Apparently they do this to prevent sticking valves, which helps prevent catastrophic damage. I dunno.

Yeah, actually, it IS. But the important difference is that oil consumption on a race car isn't a problem until the starter waves that black flag with the orange ball on it at you.

In a street engine, we have to deal with oil consumption. And smoke on startup. So we use valve stem seals on all of the valves.

Back to the OP's question though. Wouldn't a rebuilder want to remove the sump to find the broken parts when performing a top overhaul? And why does the drain plug look like a sea urchin? There's only one place that the black plastic could come from. Well, actually 5, but you get the gist.

Years ago a coworker pulled the heads on one where the tensioner failed and caused the timing to slip enough to bend the valves. One was broken into a few pieces. After reassembly the engine had no boost and no noises at all from the turbo. On disassembly I found a part of the valve stem wedged in between the scroll and the turbine wheel. I think we split the cost of the center section with the customer, but we should have caught it. Those broken parts don't just magically disappear.

$10Kish for a 3.0 engine/top end/PMO carbs plus install at a pro shop sounds like a quicky special deal for you.

Suggest moving on and rebuild the whole thing given the debris. There's blame on both sides, water under the bridge stuff.

You have a few choices: Split the case and go through the motor, or put valve stem seals in it and drive the snot out of it. Either way, I'd ask that the motor builder offset some of the cost (labor wise). I'm not saying he should work for free, but it looks like a few poor choices were made.

OK, even if this is a legit tactic, which I doubt, it is clearly a race only thing, which makes me really question the judgment of everything else this mechanic did.....

I second the full rebuild thought.

i`would say same...as Pmax ....After all it is from a friend ..so take it out and fix it...do not run it all these little pieces are by now everywhere including the lubrications tubes for rocker arms in the camshaft housings....

Ivan

To clarify, the PMO's were paid for by me seperatly at a cost of $4500. So, I paid 10K for a motor with a top end and a bunch of debris in it.

If it were my motor, I'd see what you can work out with the seller as a first choice. Unless he decides to write you a check to have someone else do the work, which I'd guess is not likely.

OK, You may want to start a thread in the 911 Engine Rebuilding forum.

HOWEVER, you are saying some of those fragments are MAGNETIC? That one piece looks like a rocker elephant foot. :eek:

Have you pulled the bottom screen off the motor?

I would not drive it after finding metal in the oil. I would tear it all the way down with my fingers crossed.

BTW, IMO, find a mechanic that believes in valve stem seals.....

and no point in playing the blame game, ***** sometimes happens.

You say you aren’t calling him out but you have this thread. You say he’s well known here. No, you don’t name him but close enough. You wouldn’t be my friend anymore if you treated me like that.

Personally, I can’t believe anyone would rebuild just the top end on this engine with a chunk of rocker missing from the money shift. Period. If the rocker is still in the cam tower, cool. If Parts are missing you go find them! To get all the way down there what did it hit on the way down? This is a shoddy oversight.

Does he have liability? Probably not unless you can salvage the friendship. He’s not going to do it because he owes you something. He will only help you with it if you mend fences. And if you think you’ve done nothing wrong, which is totally your right to believe, don’t be surprised if he continues to remain silent.

^Have you read anything the OP has written?

I've read it all. You care to point out the specific thing I said that you take issue with? :rolleyes:

The builder was a friend. It was a handshake cash deal using a "used" (in my business we call them cores) engine with a previous over rev issue. Rebuilt top end, rebuilt gearbox, add carbs. The bottom end was ALWAYS a question mark. I don't know how it got pitched to twicke. But he bought an engine that should have had it's bottom end inspected and it wasn't. Now it's got issues that are bothering him. A year later, the builder has no liability to speak of under the circumstances. Whether he helps twicke make it right is 100% predicated on how tight their friendship is. Everyone is different, but anyone who made a thread like this wouldn't be my friend. Since the builder has gone silent, I suspect he might agree with me.

Twicke has every right to be a bit pissed at his friend. I'm not putting the victim on trial here. I'm saying that this is the wrong approach to what he calls a win-win. I predict twicke will get more pissed. He will eventually name the guy. The guy will defend himself publicly or just ignore the thread completely. And then twicke will learn to rebuild the engine himself or pay someone else to do it.

Did I miss much?

Today I text the builder some photos and asked him to call me. He does, and explains the history. Sure enough, the motor had prior damage. The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.


Since you asked.

And? you quote post #1. Go on down to post #10 and the builder has gone radio silent. His position is that there's nothing wrong with the engine. I'm with twicke and I would be pissed that the engine was put into my car in the first place, as I stated in my first post.

Spit it out man, what are you getting at? What have I said that you have a problem with?

“Spit it out?”

How exactly has the OP treated the builder?

I don’t know how he treated him privately. I consider this thread poor form, which I’ve ckearly stated. So you don’t agree. Ok. That’s your opinion.

To me the key issue is whether the engine builder disclosed the reason for the top end rebuild and/or whether OP knew about the money shift. If OP was in the dark about the overrev, then he has a very strong case. Valve-piston collision, broken rockers, etc means full teardown, full stop.

Based on what we know in this thread it's utterly bewildering that the case wasn't split. Maybe OP knew and said he was willing to roll the dice. But if not, that is major malpractice and deception from the builder and the OP should be made whole.

It's so egregious I suspect there's a missing piece of this story.

So much about this is troubling.

1. A motor builder would "top" a motor that had internal damage, then sell it as if it was simply a motor with a worn out top end. There is a vast difference.

2. Buyer that did not ask about the reason that the motor was topped.

3. Motor builder asks "if this is going to cost him money"

4. Owner who doesn't have the skills to rebuild his motor, but has the skills to determine oil filter analysis. BTW I have cut and read at least 1000 oil filters(aircraft), while its not magic, a bit of knowledge goes a long way. Also you don't cut filters with snips, you use a filter cutter.

5. Anytime a motor experiences a catastrophic failure of anything, opening the bottom end is the prudent path.

6. Demand? If the "builder" isn't a regular shop, a brick and mortar business, your options are limited. You had best rely on good faith.

Sadly this is a theme becoming more frequent.

P.S. "Doing business" with a friend is fraught with Burmese Tiger Traps.....

If a friend helped build this, any reason to think he had a motive to screw you? Was this intentional? If not, then not sure what nefarious incentive the builder had to slip one by you.

Sucky situation. I get it.

This is why I never sell to friends. It’s a no win in the long run...

Ask your friend for help assessing and repairing.

From what I gather from prior posts on here, a full rebuild on your owned motor can hit 20k$.

You got a motor, in questionable condition, for 10k...installed....

It’s a no win situation. Wish the both of you luck.

It got pitched a solid motor with a top end rebuild. Leak down less than 4%. Top end was supposed to be rebuilt by friend/builder, but was told today it was 'farmed' out.

Yes, the builder went silent. We spoke this afternoon. Not much progress other than agreeing to do an oil analysis. So I'm waiting on the kit.

There is nothing insulting about this thread. Everything I've written I've said to him. I will also never name him, because I'm not that type of person. I'm only asking my fellow enthusiasts what I should expect in a situation like this. Is it not fair to do?

I did not know the reason for the top end. I also didn't ask. I trust this person would always do me right. The dilemma is what's now fair for both of us?

It sounds to me like most of you believe the case should be opened. I've decided to do a Blackstone Analysis, and as you know that will take a little time. It's the right next step, and will confirm/deny some suspicion. That's the latest update.

You're hearing what you want to. There's blame on both sides ... the shoddy farmed out top end and you asking to be made whole after one year of ownership and usage. Forget the Blackstone. Nothing is going to be definitive now about the debris as to whose fault it is.

This was a handshake deal. You have no recourse beyond interweb browbeating. Go work it out.

It’s not the “right next step”, it’s just another bad decision in a long series of dubious decisions.
So while you do the miles for the analysis, the statutory time limit for legal action in most states will have expired, leaving you with little recourse.
There is going to be a lot of butthurt in the near future. Anyone who would sell an engine that had a catastrophic failure without even pulling the lower drain cover isn’t going to own this in any way shape or form.
You have a core engine with some “new” parts. The Blackstone analysis won’t tell you where that missing metal from the failure is. Every time you roll down the road, that unaccounted for missing piece is waiting/lurking for the perfect, inopportune moment to find an almost perfect gear mesh to wedge itself into. If you are lucky it will just ruin a couple of parts and not the cases.

You guys should consolidate threads:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1034365-915-rebuild-starting-hate-car.html

So the motor runs fine?
if so, put it back together and put in valve seals when you drop it next time (if the story about no seals is true. I find it hard to believe anybody would do that)

Any used motor is a pig in a poke. Most shop work is a pig in a poke. If you want it done right.......

Nailed it....

Every “used” motor or transmission is a core, unless otherwise proven different.
Would I buy a trans from Matt M. or Peter Z. or a few other select posters, absolutely, from any one else, sure, as a core. I bought a 915/67 on the board, I got it for a core price. I pulled some covers to insure there were some decent looking parts inside, everything looks good. I am assuming every bearing, synchro, and every other potential wear item is needing replacement. If they don’t, great, if they do, it’s expected, no surprise.

I just can’t believe this turd of an engine is why you scrapped your 2.5l project and sold off all those fantastic parts you had pulled together.

Ha. I'm a glutton for punishment.