Help: Problems with recently purchased 3.0

[twickes]

Hi Pelican:

I recently (about a year ago) purchased a used 3.0 with a freshly rebuilt top end from a well known builder on this forum. I paid this builder 16K to rebuild my 901 transmission and install this 3.0 (with PMO carbs). The car was given back to me with a some slight hesitation, and I was told to install some different idle jets. That did not fix the hesitation, and it's the least of my problems right now.

A month later I noticed that oil was leaking out of the exhaust port from cylinder 3. When I called him and asked what was going on, he said there was no valve stem seals installed. This was an old "racers" trick to prevent sticking valves. I said ok.

Fast forward about a year and 1000 miles later. The car has started to burn more oil than normal, and the puff of smoke on start up has turned into a light consistent flow.

This past weekend, I decided to dump the oil and check all the valves. When I drained the tank, the plug had a mound of fine metal on it. I then proceeded to dump the sump.

This is where it gets interesting. In the sump was a rocker foot and a bunch of shredded metal. I immediately panicked and tore the valve covers off. I checked every rocker and to my surprise, none of them were missing feet. So this must have come from a previous "money shift" prior to my ownership.

Today I text the builder some photos and asked him to call me. He does, and explains the history. Sure enough, the motor had prior damage. The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.

My question is, am I being unreasonable to think that we should open this case up and check to make sure this motor doesn't have excessive wear on rings, walls and bearings? This builder is a friend of a friend, and we established a friendship after he rebuilt my 3.2 years ago. If this was your motor, what would you do? What would you demand?

Here are a few of the photos from what I found:

In the sump




About 50-60 of these shiny pieces in the filter.

[Flojo]

Originally Posted by twickes

... a used 3.0 with a freshly rebuilt top end

how much "top end" was it? case split and everything?
and "top end" is no guarantee for anything unfortunately, things (mistakes) happen.

never mind, the oil(-smoke) issue must be solved.
was there a contract signed?

I'd talk to him again, leak down test, valve check... then let's see on.

[piscator]

I don’t have the answer to your questions, but I certainly sympathize with your situation.

As for responsibility, I’d I imagine a lot depends on how the engine was first represented to you – used, rebuilt, good as new, etc. Does buying a used motor (albeit with a fresh top) include accepting a risk that something might be in the oil sump?

As for what to do, would a compression and leak-down test offer some insight? If the numbers are to specification and engine is running well, how big a problem is this?

I must quickly admit that I’m out of my depth here and can’t offer subjective advice. But I’m very interested in what our pelican engine experts will suggest.

[twickes]

Originally Posted by Flojo

how much "top end" was it? case split and everything?
and "top end" is no guarantee for anything unfortunately, things (mistakes) happen.

never mind, the oil(-smoke) issue must be solved.
was there a contract signed?

I'd talk to him again, leak down test, valve check... then let's see on.

Thanks for the feedback. The case was not split. Only head work to repair "money shift." I understand that buying a used engine is a gamble, but I also believe that it shouldn't include parts from an old break.

He's a friend, and there was no contract. I trusted him. I guess this is where we find out how tight our friendship is.

[Dpmulvan]

Not cool, some of those pieces look like plastic from chain ramp. I would tear down motor and inspect before it's totally destroyed.

[stownsen914]

I'd be pretty annoyed at having spent $16K on a motor with these issues, but I think we need more info. to come to a conclusion. Keep in mind the flow path for oil in analyzing the debris coming out of the engine. A few things to keep in mind:
- Since the case was not split in the rebuild, the debris in the sump can be residual from the broken rocker. Large debris in the sump will never make it out of the sump since the pump screen stops it.
- I don't see a ton of stuff in your filter. Some flakes could be explainable if your top end rebuild included new rod bearings (break-in debris).
- Do you have a pic of the metal you saw on your engine and tank drain plugs? I'd be more worried at seeing a lot of debris on your tank drain plug, since that is after the oil filter (assuming stock oil system).
- What did the oil in your drain pan look like? If you have accelerated bearing wear, you should see a visible quantity of fine metal in your oil, especially coming out of the engine sump as this is unfiltered oil.
- Do confirm whether the builder changed the rod bearings as part of the top end rebuild. A money shift bad enough to break a rocker could also nick a rod bearing and lead to issues later.

Just my 2 cents.

Scott

[75 911s]

If it were my engine, I'd probably split the case do a full tear down. Look on the bright side...3.2SS?

16k - so figure 4k on the rebuild of the 901 and 12k on a 3.0 with a fresh top end. And all installed. That seems reasonable.

He probably will assist in the rebuild but if a motor isn't new, then you take certain risks certainly.

I bought a 3.2 that I knew was tracked. I decided to split based on that and I'm glad I did as I found a few things that could have caused issues down the road.

I definitely wouldn't go scorched Earth. If anything, it's a hard lesson learned. Retain the friend, especially your closer friend, and keep everyone happy. Take the high road - based on that he will probably bend over backward to assist in the rebuild.

[stownsen914]

One more thing - the oil puff on startup wouldn’t bother me, but a constant flow of smoke would for a fresh motor. How much oil is it burning?

[twickes]

Originally Posted by stownsen914

I'd be pretty annoyed at having spent $16K on a motor with these issues, but I think we need more info. to come to a conclusion. Keep in mind the flow path for oil in analyzing the debris coming out of the engine. A few things to keep in mind:
- Since the case was not split in the rebuild, the debris in the sump can be residual from the broken rocker. Large debris in the sump will never make it out of the sump since the pump screen stops it.
- I don't see a ton of stuff in your filter. Some flakes could be explainable if your top end rebuild included new rod bearings (break-in debris).
- Do you have a pic of the metal you saw on your engine and tank drain plugs? I'd be more worried at seeing a lot of debris on your tank drain plug, since that is after the oil filter (assuming stock oil system).
- What did the oil in your drain pan look like? If you have accelerated bearing wear, you should see a visible quantity of fine metal in your oil, especially coming out of the engine sump as this is unfiltered oil.
- Do confirm whether the builder changed the rod bearings as part of the top end rebuild. A money shift bad enough to break a rocker could also nick a rod bearing and lead to issues later.

Just my 2 cents.

Scott

Thank-you for this. I appreciate it. The ad did not state the rod bearing were done. There are quite a few of those flakes. You're only seeing one example.

The drain plug metal was very fine, what you would normally find on a drain plug, but significantly more quantity.

I don't know how much oil it's burning, I only have 1K miles on it. I just see a more consistent stream now.

[twickes]

Originally Posted by 75 911s

If it were my engine, I'd probably split the case do a full tear down. Look on the bright side...3.2SS?

16k - so figure 4k on the rebuild of the 901 and 12k on a 3.0 with a fresh top end. And all installed. That seems reasonable.

He probably will assist in the rebuild but if a motor isn't new, then you take certain risks certainly.

I bought a 3.2 that I knew was tracked. I decided to split based on that and I'm glad I did as I found a few things that could have caused issues down the road.

I definitely wouldn't go scorched Earth. If anything, it's a hard lesson learned. Retain the friend, especially your closer friend, and keep everyone happy. Take the high road - based on that he will probably bend over backward to assist in the rebuild.

Scorched earth was one of my favorite games. I have no plans to do that, and as you can see I don't call him out. I'm trying to understand what I can reasonably expect. What is the win-win for both of us. Right now, he's gone silent.

[Catorce]

No valve stem seals is an old racer trick? Excuse me?

[twickes]

Originally Posted by Catorce

No valve stem seals is an old racer trick? Excuse me?

I've read this before. Not with 911's but on other HP engine builder forums. Apparently they do this to prevent sticking valves, which helps prevent catastrophic damage. I dunno.

[dannobee]

Originally Posted by Catorce

No valve stem seals is an old racer trick? Excuse me?

Yeah, actually, it IS. But the important difference is that oil consumption on a race car isn't a problem until the starter waves that black flag with the orange ball on it at you.

In a street engine, we have to deal with oil consumption. And smoke on startup. So we use valve stem seals on all of the valves.

Back to the OP's question though. Wouldn't a rebuilder want to remove the sump to find the broken parts when performing a top overhaul? And why does the drain plug look like a sea urchin? There's only one place that the black plastic could come from. Well, actually 5, but you get the gist.

Years ago a coworker pulled the heads on one where the tensioner failed and caused the timing to slip enough to bend the valves. One was broken into a few pieces. After reassembly the engine had no boost and no noises at all from the turbo. On disassembly I found a part of the valve stem wedged in between the scroll and the turbine wheel. I think we split the cost of the center section with the customer, but we should have caught it. Those broken parts don't just magically disappear.

[pmax]

$10Kish for a 3.0 engine/top end/PMO carbs plus install at a pro shop sounds like a quicky special deal for you.

Suggest moving on and rebuild the whole thing given the debris. There's blame on both sides, water under the bridge stuff.

[shoooo32]

You have a few choices: Split the case and go through the motor, or put valve stem seals in it and drive the snot out of it. Either way, I'd ask that the motor builder offset some of the cost (labor wise). I'm not saying he should work for free, but it looks like a few poor choices were made.

[Catorce]

Originally Posted by twickes

I've read this before. Not with 911's but on other HP engine builder forums. Apparently they do this to prevent sticking valves, which helps prevent catastrophic damage. I dunno.

OK, even if this is a legit tactic, which I doubt, it is clearly a race only thing, which makes me really question the judgment of everything else this mechanic did.....

I second the full rebuild thought.

[proporsche]

i`would say same...as Pmax ....After all it is from a friend ..so take it out and fix it...do not run it all these little pieces are by now everywhere including the lubrications tubes for rocker arms in the camshaft housings....

Ivan

[twickes]

Originally Posted by pmax

$10Kish for a 3.0 engine/top end/PMO carbs plus install at a pro shop sounds like a quicky special deal for you.

Suggest moving on and rebuild the whole thing given the debris. There's blame on both sides, water under the bridge stuff.

To clarify, the PMO's were paid for by me seperatly at a cost of $4500. So, I paid 10K for a motor with a top end and a bunch of debris in it.

[stownsen914]

If it were my motor, I'd see what you can work out with the seller as a first choice. Unless he decides to write you a check to have someone else do the work, which I'd guess is not likely.

[Trackrash]

OK, You may want to start a thread in the 911 Engine Rebuilding forum.

HOWEVER, you are saying some of those fragments are MAGNETIC? That one piece looks like a rocker elephant foot.

Have you pulled the bottom screen off the motor?

I would not drive it after finding metal in the oil. I would tear it all the way down with my fingers crossed.

BTW, IMO, find a mechanic that believes in valve stem seals.....

and no point in playing the blame game, ***** sometimes happens.