Help: Problems with recently purchased 3.0

[Matt Monson]

You say you aren’t calling him out but you have this thread. You say he’s well known here. No, you don’t name him but close enough. You wouldn’t be my friend anymore if you treated me like that.

Personally, I can’t believe anyone would rebuild just the top end on this engine with a chunk of rocker missing from the money shift. Period. If the rocker is still in the cam tower, cool. If Parts are missing you go find them! To get all the way down there what did it hit on the way down? This is a shoddy oversight.

Does he have liability? Probably not unless you can salvage the friendship. He’s not going to do it because he owes you something. He will only help you with it if you mend fences. And if you think you’ve done nothing wrong, which is totally your right to believe, don’t be surprised if he continues to remain silent.

[jac1976]

^Have you read anything the OP has written?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by jac1976

^Have you read anything the OP has written?

I've read it all. You care to point out the specific thing I said that you take issue with?

The builder was a friend. It was a handshake cash deal using a "used" (in my business we call them cores) engine with a previous over rev issue. Rebuilt top end, rebuilt gearbox, add carbs. The bottom end was ALWAYS a question mark. I don't know how it got pitched to twicke. But he bought an engine that should have had it's bottom end inspected and it wasn't. Now it's got issues that are bothering him. A year later, the builder has no liability to speak of under the circumstances. Whether he helps twicke make it right is 100% predicated on how tight their friendship is. Everyone is different, but anyone who made a thread like this wouldn't be my friend. Since the builder has gone silent, I suspect he might agree with me.

Twicke has every right to be a bit pissed at his friend. I'm not putting the victim on trial here. I'm saying that this is the wrong approach to what he calls a win-win. I predict twicke will get more pissed. He will eventually name the guy. The guy will defend himself publicly or just ignore the thread completely. And then twicke will learn to rebuild the engine himself or pay someone else to do it.

Did I miss much?

[jac1976]

Today I text the builder some photos and asked him to call me. He does, and explains the history. Sure enough, the motor had prior damage. The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.


Since you asked.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by jac1976

Today I text the builder some photos and asked him to call me. He does, and explains the history. Sure enough, the motor had prior damage. The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.


Since you asked.

And? you quote post #1. Go on down to post #10 and the builder has gone radio silent. His position is that there's nothing wrong with the engine. I'm with twicke and I would be pissed that the engine was put into my car in the first place, as I stated in my first post.

Spit it out man, what are you getting at? What have I said that you have a problem with?

[jac1976]

“Spit it out?”

How exactly has the OP treated the builder?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by jac1976

“Spit it out?”

How exactly has the OP treated the builder?

I don’t know how he treated him privately. I consider this thread poor form, which I’ve ckearly stated. So you don’t agree. Ok. That’s your opinion.

[Black 993]

To me the key issue is whether the engine builder disclosed the reason for the top end rebuild and/or whether OP knew about the money shift. If OP was in the dark about the overrev, then he has a very strong case. Valve-piston collision, broken rockers, etc means full teardown, full stop.

Based on what we know in this thread it's utterly bewildering that the case wasn't split. Maybe OP knew and said he was willing to roll the dice. But if not, that is major malpractice and deception from the builder and the OP should be made whole.

It's so egregious I suspect there's a missing piece of this story.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by twickes

Hi Pelican:

I recently (about a year ago) purchased a used 3.0 with a freshly rebuilt top end from a well known builder on this forum.

This is where it gets interesting. In the sump was a rocker foot and a bunch of shredded metal. I immediately panicked and tore the valve covers off.

The builder is upset with the situation, and asks if this is going to cost him money. I mention to him that I have yet to cut the filter open, and we agree that's the next move.

I cut the filter today (with a snips, not a saw) and discovered a few small ferrous fragments and about 100 shiny non ferrous fragments.

I text him these photos and he tells me "I don't see anything that concerns me here." I disagree.

My question is, am I being unreasonable to think that we should open this case up and check to make sure this motor doesn't have excessive wear on rings, walls and bearings? This builder is a friend of a friend, and we established a friendship after he rebuilt my 3.2 years ago. If this was your motor, what would you do? What would you demand?

So much about this is troubling.

1. A motor builder would "top" a motor that had internal damage, then sell it as if it was simply a motor with a worn out top end. There is a vast difference.

2. Buyer that did not ask about the reason that the motor was topped.

3. Motor builder asks "if this is going to cost him money"

4. Owner who doesn't have the skills to rebuild his motor, but has the skills to determine oil filter analysis. BTW I have cut and read at least 1000 oil filters(aircraft), while its not magic, a bit of knowledge goes a long way. Also you don't cut filters with snips, you use a filter cutter.

5. Anytime a motor experiences a catastrophic failure of anything, opening the bottom end is the prudent path.

6. Demand? If the "builder" isn't a regular shop, a brick and mortar business, your options are limited. You had best rely on good faith.

Sadly this is a theme becoming more frequent.

P.S. "Doing business" with a friend is fraught with Burmese Tiger Traps.....

[bpu699]

If a friend helped build this, any reason to think he had a motive to screw you? Was this intentional? If not, then not sure what nefarious incentive the builder had to slip one by you.

Sucky situation. I get it.

This is why I never sell to friends. It’s a no win in the long run...

Ask your friend for help assessing and repairing.

From what I gather from prior posts on here, a full rebuild on your owned motor can hit 20k$.

You got a motor, in questionable condition, for 10k...installed....

It’s a no win situation. Wish the both of you luck.

[twickes]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I've read it all. You care to point out the specific thing I said that you take issue with?

The builder was a friend. It was a handshake cash deal using a "used" (in my business we call them cores) engine with a previous over rev issue. Rebuilt top end, rebuilt gearbox, add carbs. The bottom end was ALWAYS a question mark. I don't know how it got pitched to twicke. But he bought an engine that should have had it's bottom end inspected and it wasn't. Now it's got issues that are bothering him. A year later, the builder has no liability to speak of under the circumstances. Whether he helps twicke make it right is 100% predicated on how tight their friendship is. Everyone is different, but anyone who made a thread like this wouldn't be my friend. Since the builder has gone silent, I suspect he might agree with me.

Twicke has every right to be a bit pissed at his friend. I'm not putting the victim on trial here. I'm saying that this is the wrong approach to what he calls a win-win. I predict twicke will get more pissed. He will eventually name the guy. The guy will defend himself publicly or just ignore the thread completely. And then twicke will learn to rebuild the engine himself or pay someone else to do it.

Did I miss much?

It got pitched a solid motor with a top end rebuild. Leak down less than 4%. Top end was supposed to be rebuilt by friend/builder, but was told today it was 'farmed' out.

Yes, the builder went silent. We spoke this afternoon. Not much progress other than agreeing to do an oil analysis. So I'm waiting on the kit.

There is nothing insulting about this thread. Everything I've written I've said to him. I will also never name him, because I'm not that type of person. I'm only asking my fellow enthusiasts what I should expect in a situation like this. Is it not fair to do?

[twickes]

Originally Posted by Black 993

To me the key issue is whether the engine builder disclosed the reason for the top end rebuild and/or whether OP knew about the money shift. If OP was in the dark about the overrev, then he has a very strong case. Valve-piston collision, broken rockers, etc means full teardown, full stop.

Based on what we know in this thread it's utterly bewildering that the case wasn't split. Maybe OP knew and said he was willing to roll the dice. But if not, that is major malpractice and deception from the builder and the OP should be made whole.

It's so egregious I suspect there's a missing piece of this story.

I did not know the reason for the top end. I also didn't ask. I trust this person would always do me right. The dilemma is what's now fair for both of us?

[twickes]

It sounds to me like most of you believe the case should be opened. I've decided to do a Blackstone Analysis, and as you know that will take a little time. It's the right next step, and will confirm/deny some suspicion. That's the latest update.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by twickes

It sounds to me like most of you believe the case should be opened. I've decided to do a Blackstone Analysis, and as you know that will take a little time. It's the right next step, and will confirm/deny some suspicion. That's the latest update.

You're hearing what you want to. There's blame on both sides ... the shoddy farmed out top end and you asking to be made whole after one year of ownership and usage. Forget the Blackstone. Nothing is going to be definitive now about the debris as to whose fault it is.

Originally Posted by twickes

There is nothing insulting about this thread. Everything I've written I've said to him. I will also never name him, because I'm not that type of person. I'm only asking my fellow enthusiasts what I should expect in a situation like this. Is it not fair to do?

This was a handshake deal. You have no recourse beyond interweb browbeating. Go work it out.

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by twickes

It sounds to me like most of you believe the case should be opened. I've decided to do a Blackstone Analysis, and as you know that will take a little time. It's the right next step, and will confirm/deny some suspicion. That's the latest update.

It’s not the “right next step”, it’s just another bad decision in a long series of dubious decisions.
So while you do the miles for the analysis, the statutory time limit for legal action in most states will have expired, leaving you with little recourse.
There is going to be a lot of butthurt in the near future. Anyone who would sell an engine that had a catastrophic failure without even pulling the lower drain cover isn’t going to own this in any way shape or form.
You have a core engine with some “new” parts. The Blackstone analysis won’t tell you where that missing metal from the failure is. Every time you roll down the road, that unaccounted for missing piece is waiting/lurking for the perfect, inopportune moment to find an almost perfect gear mesh to wedge itself into. If you are lucky it will just ruin a couple of parts and not the cases.

You guys should consolidate threads:
915 rebuild.... starting to hate this car

[eastbay]

So the motor runs fine?
if so, put it back together and put in valve seals when you drop it next time (if the story about no seals is true. I find it hard to believe anybody would do that)

Any used motor is a pig in a poke. Most shop work is a pig in a poke. If you want it done right.......

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I've read it all. You care to point out the specific thing I said that you take issue with?

The builder was a friend. It was a handshake cash deal using a "used" (in my business we call them cores) engine with a previous over rev issue. Rebuilt top end, rebuilt gearbox, add carbs. The bottom end was ALWAYS a question mark. I don't know how it got pitched to twicke. But he bought an engine that should have had it's bottom end inspected and it wasn't. Now it's got issues that are bothering him. A year later, the builder has no liability to speak of under the circumstances. Whether he helps twicke make it right is 100% predicated on how tight their friendship is. Everyone is different, but anyone who made a thread like this wouldn't be my friend. Since the builder has gone silent, I suspect he might agree with me.

Twicke has every right to be a bit pissed at his friend. I'm not putting the victim on trial here. I'm saying that this is the wrong approach to what he calls a win-win. I predict twicke will get more pissed. He will eventually name the guy. The guy will defend himself publicly or just ignore the thread completely. And then twicke will learn to rebuild the engine himself or pay someone else to do it.

Did I miss much?

Nailed it....

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by eastbay

So the motor runs fine?
if so, put it back together and put in valve seals when you drop it next time (if the story about no seals is true. I find it hard to believe anybody would do that)

Any used motor is a pig in a poke. Most shop work is a pig in a poke. If you want it done right.......

Every “used” motor or transmission is a core, unless otherwise proven different.
Would I buy a trans from Matt M. or Peter Z. or a few other select posters, absolutely, from any one else, sure, as a core. I bought a 915/67 on the board, I got it for a core price. I pulled some covers to insure there were some decent looking parts inside, everything looks good. I am assuming every bearing, synchro, and every other potential wear item is needing replacement. If they don’t, great, if they do, it’s expected, no surprise.

[Matt Monson]

I just can’t believe this turd of an engine is why you scrapped your 2.5l project and sold off all those fantastic parts you had pulled together.

[twickes]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I just can’t believe this turd of an engine is why you scrapped your 2.5l project and sold off all those fantastic parts you had pulled together.

Ha. I'm a glutton for punishment.