Fresh Rebuild Leaking - Opinions on how to broach with mechanic?

[kger]

Hey gang- I'm looking for opinions on how to approach the issue of leaks with the mechanic that did my rebuild. Here's the story:

Rebuild was performed by a very reputable Porsche specialist (has appeared many times on this forum, generally very positive reviews, tons of experience) just under 3,000 miles and 1 year ago, came with a 1 year warranty, cost was top dollar. The rebuild was comprehensive: Top and bottom end, new Ps&Cs, CIS reseal and refurb, custom cams.

At about 700 miles a large leak developed at the front main seal which the mechanic took in and repaired in connection with the "1,000" mile service. All was well after that except I noticed a few things amiss:
-He used the Tom Amon collar and sealant on the nose/#8 bearing area (maybe this is a good proactive move, but I would expect this to be unnecessary on a fresh engine)
-The O2 sensor connector had broken during the R&R and just tucked up in some wires, unplugged.
-The charcoal canister out line from the airbox was unplugged and the nipple on airbox left open (sucking in all kinds of dirty air behind the filter).
-The roll-over sensor connector on the airflow plate was disconnected or switched with the other identical sensor, causing cold start issues (I switched them, fixed it)
-I failed smog for extremely high CO, took it to another shop with a sniffer and the CO was at like 4.8 - wayyyyyy too rich.
-The car shudders significantly when pulling away in 1st gear

Now, about 2,800 miles after the initial rebuild and 2,000 miles after the first service, I have a number of small leaks and weeping which are noticeable and leaving multiple drops on the garage (valve covers/cam towers on both sides, some random case nuts are wet, looks like new leaking from front main seal, and possibly more form the rear main/nose bearing). The only thing I have done is one more oil and filter change using Brad Penn 20w50 (he used Swepco).

I assume I'm right to expect zero leaks, regardless of the oil change, for at least this amount of time and miles? Should I insist that these all be fixed and the warranty be extended for some reasonable amount of time at least with respect to major leaks?

It's truly gut wrenching to pay someone as much as I did and have issues so soon. I understand these engines leak a bit over time, but basically right away from multiple places? The other issues noted above contribute to my unease.

Any thoughts on how you would approach this with the mechanic are helpful. I'm fairly new to the big-dollar car repair world (typically do work myself). Thank you.

[Peter Zimmermann]

1st gear "shudder" can be related to one of your oil leaks contaminating the clutch assembly. Repair would include clutch disc replacement and proper cleaning of the flywheel and pressure plate.

Leaving the oxygen sensor unplugged is bad news, especially not telling you and taking the necessary steps to repair the connector.

Connecting sensors wrong is also bad news, as is setting the CO at 4.8, did your technician have a CO machine, or did they simply guess? Or did they fatten up the mixture to try to correct your cold start problem?

Leaking/weeping should not happen after correct cleaning/assembly of parts, especially on an aluminum (1981 SC) engine. Your unease, unfortunately, is a correct reaction to your circumstance. It sounds like incorrect sealants may have been used, or rocker arm shafts were not installed correctly, or...??? You are also correct that parts other than a new #8 main bearing o-ring are not necessary on a "fresh" engine. Wet case nuts are also unusual, do they look new? Do they have proper washers under them? Are they Nylok nuts?

Again, unfortunately, you have to either (1) take the car back to the original tech, or (2) take it to a shop that is capable of a correct diagnosis (document this), and then decide what to do. You are between a rock and a hard place. Whatever you decide, if you have not already done so, document all of the leaks with photographs.

[kger]

Thanks Peter. I'll document all of this and hope that he is willing to make it right. I might even take it the shop I now use to give it a once over and catch anything else I haven't.

In response to your questions:

-Also, the clutch shudder was also present (though better) before the rebuild/new clutch so that might be tranny mounts or a cable issue/etc.
-All the hardware is new abd appears to be nyloc (blue insert). Though I did find some old grime left on the case in the nut recess under the left side of the fan housing which concerns me about the cleaning job. Not sure about washers but will confirm
-He did not have a gas analyzer, just set the CIS by feel/sound/response.

The whole reason I shelled out for the expert build instead of taking a chance on an upstart or tackling it myself was to have peace of mind and guaranteed longevity...

[Bigtoe32067]

So I owned a shop for 20 years and while I hated for customers to come back in with a problem I’d much rather they came back and let me address them then take it somewhere else or stew on it quietly.
If we aren’t allowed to learn from our mistakes and grow from it then we never get better.

I don’t know how your shop will take it but I’d certainly give them the chance to make it right.
If they don’t then shame on them!
Tony

[bpu699]

Subscribed with sympathy. I just finished the rebuild of the long block, and the dozens of areas where these motors can leak, are frightening. As most can’t be easily gotten to, and many passages are pressurized...

My 30 year old motor, before the rebuild, seeped but didn’t leak. No drops on the garage floor. But it was oily everywhere...

[Quickstep192]

I’d at least go back, explain the issues and see what he has to say.

[kger]

Originally Posted by bpu699

My 30 year old motor, before the rebuild, seeped but didn’t leak. No drops on the garage floor. But it was oily everywhere...

This engine, with north of 200k and 30 years, hardly leaked before the rebuild,... and that was with 5 broken head studs hahaha.

[john walker's workshop]

I've warned about using Loctite 574 on case halves, because it can set up quicker than you think sometimes and keep the halves from totally coming together.Just last month I tore down an '87 930 engine that leaked at the #8 main bearing and case after a recent rebuild somewhere else, and found that damn 574 crust about .010" thick on both sides of the bearing. I haven't used it since about 30 years ago after having that issue on a 77 930 that I rebuilt. Find out what sealant was used. The rebuilder needs to bite the bullet and split the case and fix it right instead of mousing it with that ring.

[xbmwguy]

My money on the shudder is clutch cable. Just went through that a couple months back

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by Bigtoe32067

So I owned a shop for 20 years and while I hated for customers to come back in with a problem I’d much rather they came back and let me address them then take it somewhere else or stew on it quietly.
If we aren’t allowed to learn from our mistakes and grow from it then we never get better.

I don’t know how your shop will take it but I’d certainly give them the chance to make it right.
If they don’t then shame on them!
Tony

Nicely put Tony.

[proporsche]

Besides the points J.W. is telling you..the problem with the clutch could be just loose bolts on the transmission where it is attached to the engine.I have seen that plenty of times.But the main problem is the engine, take it back to the original shop.It should not have any oil leaks for a long time.
I have also experienced if the mechanic put toooo much of loctite 574 the case, the 8th bearing will leak.
I do not have problem using it but only on one side of the engine case.

Ivan

To...John Walker
if i may ask, what do you use on the case?
thanx

[john walker's workshop]

Elring Dirko. On 915s too, instead of gaskets.

[T77911S]

this stuff

[

[proporsche]

thanx John ..we learn every day .. T77 the link did not open ..thanks thou

Ivan

[GT-2]

I feel your pain.....paid an ungodly amount to Patrick Motorsports for a full 3.8l build and started leaking oil out of both side chain covers on first drive, the answer I got was clean it off, re-torque cover bolts but it did nothing to stop it, good news is the engine is running great but hate to see oil over garage floor after complete rebuilt that’s been resealed especially when you fork over big dough.

[pmax]

Sorry to hear about the trouble but it's interesting how the leaks start the 3K mark and not earlier.

Post some pics if you can. The source is not always obvious.

[kger]

Originally Posted by pmax

Sorry to hear about the trouble but it's interesting how the leaks start the 3K mark and not earlier.

Post some pics if you can. The source is not always obvious.

This is why I mentioned the change in oil from Swepco to Brad Penn, but I don't think on a fresh engine that should make the difference between zero leaks and a bunch.

I put it on stands today and took some pics so I'll post them here this evening.


I sent an email to him today with the pics and a video so we'll see what the reaction is. Warranty is up next week :/

[proporsche]

one question remains ... did the mechanic use synthetic oil or mineral and you put in what?
Ivan

[kger]

Originally Posted by proporsche

one question remains ... did the mechanic use synthetic oil or mineral and you put in what?
Ivan

I believe it was Swepco 306 20w50 and I used Brad Penn 20w50. I hope this doesn't turn into a full blown oil thread

[john walker's workshop]

Shouldn't make any difference.