converting to EFI

[T77911S]

I am about to start putting the engine back to together in my 930.
I have twin plugged the heads and bought an MS3pro evo.
I am NOT going full EFI just yet.
plan is to break the engine in with old ign and CIS then get the ignition portion working to run the twin plugs from the MS3 and then later go full EFI.


my question is now mainly about knock sensors or any other EFI parts that would be easier to install now while the engine is apart.

what is the best knock sensor to use.

[pkabush]

Im not very knowledgeable when it comes to EFI but since no ones jumped in yet...
I think a lot people go with Bosch knock sensors. I’d try a search here.
It would probably be beneficial to decide on what type of system you want to use. That way you can install the proper cam sensors, crank pulley etc. Good luck on your project. I’m finally getting close on mine.

[jpnovak]

Your gonna have to provide way more information to get a detailed answer.

I use the Bosch knock sensor. Either on the throttle console stud on cylinder #3 or on a knock bridge between the heads 964 style. You must have your heads modified for the knock bridge. The cylinder #3 stud works well. Just machine down the existing spacer. (IIRC the knock sensor is 19mm tall so that's how much you take off. Knock sensors are sensitive to torque installation. Make sure it is torqued properly. Route the wire though a notch you will make in the fan shroud near the edge.

You should also install all the sensors, wiring, crank pulley and other parts that are difficult to access once installed. Can't give specifics unless you explain how you are going to determine rpm. Is it a crank pulley and hall-effect sensor? flying magnets? Machined teeth in flywheel (Like TurboKraft) or some other input? You don't want to drop the engine to install so do this now. Plan ahead.

Are you running a cam sensor for sequential? If so, drill the cam shaft now. But this requires an alternative for the scavenge pump.

Install the warmup (CLT) sensor. This could be drilled into the head of #3 or cam oil line or breather cap. Several options.

Are you keeping the existing manifold or swapping to something different. You will need an IAT (air temp sensor). I usually mount these in the underside of the manifold below the throttle plate. Gotta know the actual incoming temperature getting to the cylinders.

I would also consider to run your wiring harness before the drivetrain goes back into the car. Much more room to work with.

Also, modify your engine tin and chain housing for twin plug now. Much easier with engine on the stand. #3 cylinder tin needs a notch. #4 chain housing notch needs clearance.

personally, I would just install the EFI now. Way too much work to reverse it all once installed.

[jons911]

A couple pieces of advice from someone who is a few months ahead of you:

1) Do a dry assembly of all of your EFI components. Make sure that you know how they will integrate into the system, how they'll be mounted, and plan out where the wiring will go. I had to to rework my vacuum setup to accommodate switching from MAF to MAP, a new IAT sensor, a new fuel pressure regulator, and the blow off valve. As Jamie mentioned, the #4 cylinder lower plug will require cutting out a semi circle on the chain housing. If you are switching to COP, it can be quite a bit more than you initially expect. If you are going full sequential, Clewett's scavenge pump is a direct replacement for the stock 930 pump and has an integrated cam sensor. That's what I'm using and it was nice and easy. You could also potentially use the cam/crank pickup that is a drop in replacement of the distributor. Rasant has one, and I think there may be another manufacturer as well.

2) Decide now on how you want to go through break in and the EFI conversion. As I'm sure you're aware, you get a limited window to get a good break in on the engine. The last thing you want is to be puttering around trying to get EFI working properly. If you can get a decent tune for your setup before hand, then I would go ahead and just start there. Save yourself the trouble of blending the two setups just so you can ditch the old stuff shortly after. I can't comment on getting through the first start on MS3 as I used AEM, but for me, the ignition wasn't the problem, it was the fueling. My VE table is what had the car running so poorly at first, not my AFR target or my ignition tables. Once I got the VE table tuned, the car ran really well even with the conservative timing and the very generic AFR target table.

3) If you are going to use a dyno/shop to do your break in, start reaching out early to try to get things scheduled. At least for me, I spent a week trying to get in touch with 3 of 4 of my local shops and I never heard back. Unfortunately for me, I waited until the car was done to try to figure that out. I actually managed to get the tune sorted enough with a few short trips around the neighborhood, but it really bothered me that the first few miles were wasted on neighborhood driving just trying to get it running somewhat smooth.

Overall, if you can get a base tune up front, I would recommend going full EFI from the start and save the hassle of having pieces of two systems in there and then having to swap over with the engine in the car.

[Cheshire Cat]

Originally Posted by jons911

A couple pieces of advice from someone who is a few months ahead of you:

I would recommend going full EFI from the start and save the hassle of having pieces of two systems in there and then having to swap over with the engine in the car.

what he says

[T77911S]

that's just it, I have no idea what I need because there are so many options out there.
like determining RPM. I don't know the advantages of the different options.

I know I want to run sequential
I thought people were mounting cam sensor on the old pulley for the smog pump.
I will put in what ever I need to to make the system work the best it can especially if it means easier tuning

break in will be with original ignition and CIS(single plug) just how it was when the engine came out. planning on doing it as the local racetrack


pictures would be really nice so I can see how things are mounted.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by T77911S

I know I want to run sequential
I thought people were mounting cam sensor on the old pulley for the smog pump.

You could do that. I use Clewett's scavenge pump that includes a hall-effect cam position sensor. It'll also (apparently) happily deal with bb turbos which can overwhelm the stock pump, even with the oil restrictor.
[/QUOTE]

There's a whole thread on the turbo forum about mounting knock sensors; bolting them to the block works fine, and there's a threaded nub by the breather tower that's unused. Special $1.50 shouldered bolt from McMaster Carr and you're off to the races. I use an M8 stud under the fan shroud, which also works fine.

[jons911]

For my setup, I'm running the following: cam, crank, MAP, IAT, throttle position, Fuel pressure, and cylinder head temp.
Here's how they are mounted:
-Cam: Built in sensor on Clewett's 930 scavenge pump. It mounts on the driver side cam and should be a direct replacement for the stock scavenge pump.
-Crank: Rothsport crank pulley with 36-1 trigger wheel and sensor. The sensor mounts on the stud for the distributor. I plugged that whole with an expanding plug made by Clewett.
-Map: I ran a short vacuum line off of the lowest port on my throttle body to a GM 3 Bar MAP sensor. It conveniently bolted to one of the M4 threads on the throttle body.
-IAT: I run a y pipe into the 90 degree bend into the throttle body. The IAT sensor sits right at that junction.
-Throttle position: The stock 3.2 had something of a TPS, but I think it was basically idle, WOT, and everything else. I have Clewett's TPS which is a direct replacement.
-Fuel pressure: As recommended by Rasant who developed the setup I used, my fuel pressure sensor is on the port on my fuel pressure regulator.
-Cylinder head temp: Stock 3.2 sensor in the stock location. If you don't have that, it's a tapped hole at about a 45 degree angle cut into the side of the heads. It's only usable on the number 3 head since all of the others are blocked.

For batch fire, you just need the crank sensor. For full sequential, you need the cam sensor. That tells the ECU whether the engine is between 0-360, or 360-720. Some people prefer tuning with TPS vs Engine RPM. I currently use MAP vs RPM with TPS used for fuel and ignition trims.

The most annoying thing for me to sort out was the crank position sensor. Oddly enough, it probably has the most options. You can get a trigger wheel on your crank pulley, and there are multiple companies that offer that. You can use one of those sensors that drop in for the distributor. Depending on the engine/clutch/transmission package, you can swap to a newer flywheel that has the 60-2 teeth in it. Or you could have your current flywheel or new stock replacement machined, although that is probably an option I would put last on the list. I opted for the crank pulley with a trigger wheel as the flywheel that would work for my setup only comes from the '89 964 C4 which was like $700 and only from Germany. And that was just the flywheel. It would still need a new sensor and mount for that sensor.

[T77911S]

thanks guys, much help for the slow minded here.

a little more on the IAT.
does that need to be in the intake air path.
I am going to use the stock 930 intake.

[jons911]

The IAT mounts like an O2 sensor. It projects maybe 1/2" to 3/4" into the air stream. It does not need to be after the throttle body. Really, it just needs to be after whatever cooling you are using since the air temp shouldn't really change between intercooler and throttle and intake port. I needed to mount mine close to the throttle body because I have two intakes, one for each turbo/intercooler, and I wanted it to get the temp of the combined air mass, not just one of the sides.

[Coastr]

If you don’t know what system you want to use I would start with the people who are going to help you get it going. Different dyno people Favor different setups. I would work backward by identifying g who can help you tune, and then ask them for advice. Dyno time is expensive and if the operator knows your setup and is familiar then they will be more productive at tuning time. The result is less hassle for you and a better cheaper outcome. Short answer is find someone who can work with Efi for a 930 and start talking to them.

If you are committed to Efi (a good idea) then every minute getting your CIS back up and running is wasted time. You need to wire up the engine before it goes back in or you will need to pull it back out to do it again.

[spuggy]

For the CHT, Clewett (very helpful guy BTW) says you can tap a blind hole into the cam gallery; there's apparently a blind there, so the chips don't go anywhere important.

I had already fitted the TurboKraft adapter, this slides between the top fin and the head. Needs trimming for twin-plug (cut a corner off); fill the fitting with ATF for good thermal conductivity (I also used Arctic Silver thermal paste where it touches the fins) and dremel a little rectangle in the tin to allow the end with the lead to poke out. Readings start increasing as soon as the motor fires; LGTM. This does require you to remove the scavenge pump, however. And the tin. So it's a lot more convenient with the motor out, although it can be done with it in, you'll likely spend twice as long on removing/refitting the tin than anything else...

I actually did spring for a 36-2 flywheel thinking we'd use the factory sensor location, but we used the one on the flywheel pulley anyway...

[spyerx]

regarding knock, I'm doing full EFI dual plug coil on plug etc on a 2.8L mag case motor, the cylinders we are having made have the boss on them to allow use of the 993 type rail for the Bosch knock sensor, we'll run 1 sensor per bank.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by Coastr

If you don’t know what system you want to use I would start with the people who are going to help you get it going. Different dyno people Favor different setups. I would work backward by identifying g who can help you tune, and then ask them for advice. Dyno time is expensive and if the operator knows your setup and is familiar then they will be more productive at tuning time. The result is less hassle for you and a better cheaper outcome. Short answer is find someone who can work with Efi for a 930 and start talking to them.

If you are committed to Efi (a good idea) then every minute getting your CIS back up and running is wasted time. You need to wire up the engine before it goes back in or you will need to pull it back out to do it again.

just got my MS3 EVO yesterday so I am now committed to it.
that's the plan, wire it now while I am rebuilding the engine.
well at least get the sensors mounted now.

CIS is not a waste of time., mine has been rebuilt and ran great. I don't want to damage a new engine trying to get a new EFI system running.
I need it to start up so I can break it in properly

[T77911S]

I found this IAT!!!

it will thread into the hole in the back of my manifold.
I don't know what was connected to it before since I had to buy another manifold and mine was already plugged. the hole is on the back side below the TB.

https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-010200-air-temp-sensor-small-thread/

[T77911S]

is it possible to drill and tap a hole in a cooling fin to mount this

https://www.amazon.com/Delphi-AS10017-Ignition-Knock-Sensor/dp/B000CGHTC4/ref=asc_df_B000CGHTC4/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583863979837802&psc=1

[trond]

not in a thin and brittle cooling fin no. My guess
Best to fit IAT in something that is not too exposed to heatsoaking. May be hard to start the car after having been to the shop.... is what I found

[TimT]

I found this IAT!!!

That is pretty much a GM IAT...nothing special or exotic.. and can be had for much less before Haltech obliterates the GM part number, or puts a sticker on it...

Regarding the knock sensor, use the Bosch..much more documentation..

GM IAT
https://www.amazon.com/Delphi-Packard-Temperature-25036751-Connector/dp/B00E5PLAVO


Take your pick..


I've had good returns with a GM sensor.. and simply mounting where the engine is getting its intake... on a rain hat, /intake snorkel..