FLOODED ENGINE? Non-Starter. Need help to diagnose

[thefaculty]

Hi everyone,

I now a few of you may have followed my instagram feed and might be aware that I have having fuel pump issues but before I go any further with trying to solve my problem I figured I;d post my symptoms here in teh hope that someone may be able to lend their wisdom with some suggestions! Of course my thanks comes in advance of any help you may be able to offer! Here's a run down of what I have faced the last few days:

Drove car to friends house one evening (30 min non-spirited drive).
Left car parked outside their house for 2 hours.
Non-starter when it came time to leave. Turned key. Cranked but no fire. Battery then drained. Tried a booster. Still no luck. Assumed fuel pump was gone (it was previously rather loud and I suspected would need replacing soon). Flat-bed back to my house.
Ordered new pump and check valve. Replaced both. Turned over. No fuel pump.
Went to fuel pump relay and jumped 87a & 30. Fuel pump runs.
Replaced relay with new relay. Key on. Sensor plate lifted. Pump runs and noise heard from fuel distributer. I honestly checked this a few times which I mention because it may play a part in what comes next.
Turn key to crank. Cranks but doesn't fire.
Battery very low so I use a booster for a few more goes. Battery has charged over night and is now full. It puts 12.75V at the terminals. I haven't yet cranked her but she was pulling just over 10V last night on crank.
I stupidly pumped the gas pedal a few times as well (I am very new to 911s and didn't know this may flood the engine - you live and learn, be kind! )
Throughout I smell raw fuel.
Last night before going to sleep I check underneath the car and I see a build up of fuel where the heat exchangers meet the crossover pipe and CAT - see pic below where circled. (Both will be replaced this year for SSIs but not yet - I need to get her going before any of this happens.)
Oh, and although I cannot pull the plugs right now I am able to crank by hand. 2 fun rotations, met a tiny bit of resistance for about 120 degrees but felt very easy throughout.

So... in my ignorance have I flooded my engine? If so what do I do? If not what do I do?

The following has been suggested to me so far but I don't want to proceed without a better understanding of what would be a good idea:

• Floor throttle and crank for 30 seconds which should force the car to fire.
• Sprak brake cleaner into the intake, pull fuel pump fuse and crank forcing engine to fire
• Pull plugs to see if they are wet. Change if they are.

I can't pull the plugs right now as I don't have a tool (like I said I am new and building my toolset). I have just ordered the Hazet hoping it will arrive soon and will do that check.
I have heard that spraying starter fluid, carb cleaner or brake cleaner into the snake on a CIS is a very bad idea so wanted to check this with you all before I go that route. I do have a pop-out valve installed.
On the flooring throttle suggestion I am worried about this further flooding the engine.

So I am looking at her today with a fully charged battery having sat overnight (it's cold here in Toronto so fuel still wet around areas shown below) and wondering should I try turning her over again or is there something else you can suggest based on all this info above. What I don't want to do is further exasperate the situation by turning the ignition key again.

Thanks everyone!

Dan

[trond]

don't do what I did; it was flooded to the point where it was hydrolocked. Happened while fiddling with the MS ECU..... I pulled the plugs and cranked. Fuel everywhere and a WHOMP as it cought fire. managed to extinguish with the garden hose with only minimal damage.

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by trond

don't do what I did; it was flooded to the point where it was hydrolocked. Happened while fiddling with the MS ECU..... I pulled the plugs and cranked. Fuel everywhere and a WHOMP as it cought fire. managed to extinguish with the garden hose with only minimal damage.

This is exactly what I am concerned about - any idea what I should do? Pull plugs? Hand crank?

[trond]

pull ignition rotor or disable ignition properly, pulling plugs as i did will not prevent sparks. pull fuel pump relay. Have water hose handy. Don't do it indoors

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by trond

pull ignition rotor or disable ignition properly, pulling plugs as i did will not prevent sparks. pull fuel pump relay. Have water hose handy. Don't do it indoors

Thanks - sorry for the stupid question but what is the safest way to disable the ignition system so that I can do this?

[NYNick]

Dan,

Do you not have a P-car tool kit? There's a spark plug tool in it.

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by NYNick

Dan,

Do you not have a P-car tool kit? There's a spark plug tool in it.

No I don't - the car didn't come wth one and I haven't yet splashed the $500USD - of course now I wish I had. The Hazet will arrive soon I hope.

[trond]

please note the ignition is NOT disabled by pulling plugs. There will be sparks flying. You could just pull distributor cap

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by trond

please note the ignition is NOT disabled by pulling plugs. There will be sparks flying. You could just pull distributor cap

I'd then need to reset timing correct?

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by thefaculty

I'd then need to reset timing correct?

Neither pulling the plugs, removing the Distributor Cap or removing the rotor affects timing. The Cap and rotor only go on one way and you can't mess them up.

If you loosen and/or move the distributor itself where it's attached (see the notch down there?), then you affect timing.

There's no need to pull the plug wires from the cap to do this, but if you do, KEEP TRACK of where they go on the cap. That's your firing order.

[timmy2]

Just pull the coil wire out of the coil.
No need to remove cap.
Pull plugs when tool arrives. Pull fuel pump relay.
Turn engine over with starter for 10 seconds or so.
Dry the plug ends out with a hair dryer or small flame.
Let it sit for an hour or more until smell of fuel is gone before replacing plugs and trying to start.

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Just pull the coil wire out of the coil.
No need to remove cap.
Pull plugs when tool arrives. Pull fuel pump relay.
Turn engine over with starter for 10 seconds or so.
Dry the plug ends out with a hair dryer or small flame.
Let it sit for an hour or more until smell of fuel is gone before replacing plugs and trying to start.

Thanks Tim!! I know this all seems like simple stuff but if, like me, you've never done it before you just don't know. Thanks for this walkthrough - it's a huge help and greatly appreciated!

[boyt911sc]

Dan,

Since you don’t have the tool to remove the spark plugs at this point, don’t do anything until you removed the spark plugs. You have flooded the engine and the engine oil has been compromised. Attempting to re-start the motor will only introduce fuel into the engine and subsequently flood the motor.

Disable the fuel pump system by removing the FPR (fuel pump relay) and hook up an inductive timing light to test for ignition signals. Test and confirm the presence of ignition signal (inductive timing light) and ignition sparks from the spark plugs electrode/s. Unfortunately you don’t even have the basic tools to perform this simple procedure. Stop momentarily and regroup.

Did you check your cold control and system fuel pressures? You need a pressure gauge to do this investigation. Keep us posted.

Tony

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Dan,

Since you don’t have the tool to remove the spark plugs at this point, don’t do anything until you removed the spark plugs. You have flooded the engine and the engine oil has been compromised. Attempting to re-start the motor will only introduce fuel into the engine and subsequently flood the motor.

Disable the fuel pump system by removing the FPR (fuel pump relay) and hook up an inductive timing light to test for ignition signals. Test and confirm the presence of ignition signal (inductive timing light) and ignition sparks from the spark plugs electrode/s. Unfortunately you don’t even have the basic tools to perform this simple procedure. Stop momentarily and regroup.

Did you check your cold control and system fuel pressures? You need a pressure gauge to do this investigation. Keep us posted.

Tony

Thanks Tony. Yes, I am still at that stage where I am accumulating my "basic" tolls as I discover I need them. It's really frustrating but we all start somewhere I guess. I should be able test ignition signals tomorrow when my timing light and plug tester arrive. In the meantime I have confirmed power to the CDI and I then pulled the distributer cap and look what I found (see pic below). The rotor looks good but the contacts in the cap are pitted. Could this be the cause of my non-start do you think and should I replace the cap?

[jlex]

Any possibility of oil contamination here? Someone needs to chime in as to whether you'll need to change the oil that's been diluted with gas. Had a leaky carburetor on my '70 bug and changed oil immediately... had to as they only hold 2.5 qts of oil in the first place. May be that the 11 qts your motor holds won't be affected by a flood of gas, but it may pay to check... does oil smell like gas? Could be a non issue due to the large amount of oil these cars operate with.

[NYNick]

When stuff likes this happens, I ALWAYS revert the car to how it was before I started messing with it. As far as I can tell, you've removed the old fuel pump and installed a new relay.

You're chasing ghosts here. Put the car back the way it was before you started 'fixing' it.
I'd pull the plugs and clean them up, but if it doesn't start after you put it back to the way it was, you can start with spark, fuel and air again.

It ran before the way it was, right? Too many variables now if you ask me.

[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by NYNick

When stuff likes this happens, I ALWAYS revert the car to how it was before I started messing with it. As far as I can tell, you've removed the old fuel pump and installed a new relay.

You're chasing ghosts here. Put the car back the way it was before you started 'fixing' it.
I'd pull the plugs and clean them up, but if it doesn't start after you put it back to the way it was, you can start with spark, fuel and air again.

It ran before the way it was, right? Too many variables now if you ask me.

I hear ya but this started because I had a non start outside my buddies house and had to flat-bed it home. Suspected fuel pump so replaced it as I knew it needed doing anyway. Also found relay was faulty after testing: FP relay in, key on, sensor plate lifted = no fuel pump running. So relay was switched.

From here I think we're now moving to the root of the problem which I suspect is no spark. My plan of attack from here on is:

• Pull plugs and check for spark with timing light and plug tester.
• If there is spark clean all spark plugs and allow combustion chamber to dry out.
• Check cold fuel pressures
• If no spark then look to CDI & Coil

So now I wait for the right tools to arrive! I'll update you guys as soon as I can run these checks

[Mixed76]

Cranking the motor with the fuel pump disabled will dry the cylinders out pretty quick. I don't think you need to pull the plugs to clean them.

Flooring the throttle opens the throttle plate so plenty of air can get in while you are cranking. Fuel is metered by the air metering plate. Related, but two different things. So don't worry about cranking with the throttle to the floor.

I would try cranking with the throttle wide open and no fuel pump for 10 seconds. Then hook up the fuel pump and crank again with throttle wide open. If you get no coughing at all, and the gas smell intensifies, then you probably have no spark. Could be that your cis is out of whack rich, but I'd expect an attempted start in that case. If it coughs and tries to start, you have spark and either cis is rich or it's not letting enough air in for cranking.

My two cents.

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[thefaculty]

Originally Posted by Mixed76

Cranking the motor with the fuel pump disabled will dry the cylinders out pretty quick. I don't think you need to pull the plugs to clean them.

Flooring the throttle opens the throttle plate so plenty of air can get in while you are cranking. Fuel is metered by the air metering plate. Related, but two different things. So don't worry about cranking with the throttle to the floor.

I would try cranking with the throttle wide open and no fuel pump for 10 seconds. Then hook up the fuel pump and crank again with throttle wide open. If you get no coughing at all, and the gas smell intensifies, then you probably have no spark. Could be that your cis is out of whack rich, but I'd expect an attempted start in that case. If it coughs and tries to start, you have spark and either cis is rich or it's not letting enough air in for cranking.

My two cents.

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Thanks for explaining this - it's a huge help!!
I'm going to try the throttle open with no fuel pump to help clean the engine out but then I think it best that I check for spark before trying to fire it again. I strongly suspect no spark and possible an issue with the coil or CD. If so I will likely upgrade to an MSD unit and matching coil. If it's not that then it's time to check fuel pressures. We shall see!
Really appreciate the insight here mate!!

[Mixed76]

Adding to that- the engine may try to fire when you crank it with no fuel, if you haven't also disabled the spark. It won't start, but it should pass from rich to lean during cranking, and at least one cylinder may fire while you are pumping air through the engine. If that happens it would be another indicator of messed up cis/ maybe ok spark.

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