George’s headers

[bsprad]

I’ve heard a lot of people talk about how good a set of Georges headers perform on a 3.2 for the price but I have no clue where to buy a set. Does anyone have input on performance of these headers on 3.2 and possibly a contact where I may be able to purchase a set and how much I should expect to pay? Any help is much appreciated.

[juanbenae]

George's headers are like "jello" & "Kleenex" in that any set of pipes that can't be specifically identified becomes "geo's"..

you lose your heat & defrost if you were not already aware. then you will likely have gaping holes in your engine tin where all the in motor compartment heater lines go to the HE's.


there is a vendor or two here that have the best answers for 3.2 heat exchanger headers a tad bigger than SSI 1.5" diameter while maintaining heat capabilities. im not a 3.2 guy, but I think you need a wong chip rewrite if you go to a freer exhaust on a 3.2 to get all that's due.

[Mahler9th]

Not sure I agree with the previous post. I have owned several sets of George's European headers during the past couple of decades.

George refers to a person, now deceased. I still have a receipt with his name on it in my files. If I recall correctly his company was in Nevada. It was sold to GT Racing in Colorado, and they still make and sell the headers.

They are great parts, and GT Racing is a great company, now I think run by the founder's son.

Bursch and Borla have also been popular for 911 headers, and S CAR GO. I have owned a set of S Car Go headers as well (they cost about $3-4k, the guy that makes them is now the tech editor of Excellence).

Anyway, you can sometimes find George's European Headers used in these Forums. New ones can be had from GT Racing, and they may be able to tell you how they took over production/"bought" the company from George's widow.

I spoke to George once or twice back in the day and he was great deal with.

[Litle brother]

Here is something for you to look at.
It’s from Eisenmann in Germany. The HE’s has 39mm internal diameter. The SSI ones has in comparison 35mm ID.
I have a complete kit like this on my car and I am very satisfied.
It sounds almost like an RSR.




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[175K911]

Mike is correct. real George’s headers refers to those made by George Narbel who was European Racing. His headers worked and always fit right. He was one of the old craftsmen who had been around the Porsche performance world seems like forever. Like Leigh Houseman of H&H Carrera sway bars in Chelmsford Mass. he was making slick upgraded through body sway bars before many of the current purveyors ever started in business. And Al Reed for the absolute best Fuchs wheel refinishing. These are people/ craftsmen I remember dealing with 20 and 30 years ago, who always took the time to have a pleasant conversation.

There are others, and there are still folks like that today, but some of these guys were pioneers.

[Mahler9th]

Of course I am right.

Not to put too fine a point on it...

GT Racing is owned and run by the Godfresons, second generation in this business.

I dealt with and raced with/against Hank Godfreson back in the day; now it is Joel and his wife.

They were, and likely still are sponsors of PCA Club Racing.

When I say they bought George Narbel's business, I don't mean just the name. I do not know the full details, but I am sure that you can find out by contacting GT Racing. I think it was a family to family transaction.

My suspicion is that they use the same tools, materials and processes that George did, and you can learn more here:

Porsche 911 European Racing Headers for 911 2.7 - 3.2 Liter Motors Part# 911-158

A friend of mine just bought a set from Joel last Summer in the 1 5/8" OD. He used them just once for a specific event (to meet sound requirements). He will be selling these in the Forums in upcoming weeks/months (when he gets around to it).

They fit well and performed as expected.

So yes, even though George passed away some years ago (RIP), you can still buy European headers, and they still work and fit great.

Like the previous poster, I remember all of these craftsmen and pioneers, and appreciate what they did and in some cases continue to do to provide excellent parts and service.

I would include the Godfredson family in that mix.

[lvporschepilot]

George’s headers are great but I have always wondered if the collector style couldn’t be a bit better. Yes they are essentially the factory RSR spec racing manifold and Porsche do know a thing or two. Seems a modern burns collector would be more efficient, but I have no dyno comparison so I have no idea. Brian with m&k makes what appear to be a nice alternative

[Bill Verburg]

George's are probably fine for a race car, they emulate the original headers used on RSRs
Like these



This design dates from the 906 & 910 exhaust shown here, w/ cone tips


That said Porsche factory headers didn't pay much attention to the collector design until the late 993RSRs, even the early 993RSRs used the splayed collector design.

A rotating collector is certainly more efficient but only a little better and only over a relatively narrow rev range

Late 993 RSR w/ rotating collector, 40mm pipes


The big issue I see w/ Georges for street use is lack of heat and mild steel construction.

The only real issue w/ SSI on a 3.2 is the smallish primary tubes, @ 1 3/8" ID(1 1/2"OD) these become increasingly too small as displacement and/or rpm increase. Even a 3.0 will want bigger pipes if the rpm is increased to ~7500 or more.

Here's flow vs rpm comparison for various displacements


Lastly w/o happier cams a very large part of the potential benefit from headers in missing. Modern smog motors have very little overlap timing, w/o that the acoustic tuning benefit just isn't there and only flow efficiency in the pipes and collector matter.

This diagram shows the acoustic rarefaction wave at the exhaust port at overlap TDC, this low pressure pulls extra spent gas from the combustion changer and has the additional benefit of pulling additional charge into the chamber


This reflected acoustic signal is also largely canceled when a muffler is used but can be amplified by the use of cone or reverse cone tips

The best 3.2 street/track exhaust I've seen is the Eisenmann mentioned above

[lvporschepilot]

Bill, fantastic post as usual. I imagine usage of cones or diffusers prior to the RSR muffler itself likely enhanced the effect. The tract lengths cannot go unnoted as they are tuned for the entire package.

The Ferrari 355 crowd goes over the collector discussion every now and again as Fabspeed make a 4-1 design with a proper collector, while the stock and Tubi design is 4-2-1. The large merge collector only sees benefit way up in the RPM range, while the other design sees benefits everywhere else. I would think the 993rsr header design would be the same, lots of air needs to be moving to really see things happen.

[RarlyL8]

We get good reviews from the track guys using our medium equal length stainless headers with F1 merge collectors on Carrera engines. Various mufflers and straight pipes are connected depending on sound restrictions. Currently we are working with a couple race shops on two new systems, one being a 6-3-2-1 that mimics the race car design, the other has dual cats. Headers are very engine specific which is why for example the 1.5" SSI work better on stock 3.0L engines and our 1.63" units perform better on 3.2L Carrera engines or modified 3.0L engines. George's European headers are a nice economical solution, 321 S/S and internally polished merge collectors add cost pretty quick.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by lvporschepilot

Bill, fantastic post as usual. I imagine usage of cones or diffusers prior to the RSR muffler itself likely enhanced the effect. The tract lengths cannot go unnoted as they are tuned for the entire package.

The Ferrari 355 crowd goes over the collector discussion every now and again as Fabspeed make a 4-1 design with a proper collector, while the stock and Tubi design is 4-2-1. The large merge collector only sees benefit way up in the RPM range, while the other design sees benefits everywhere else. I would think the 993rsr header design would be the same, lots of air needs to be moving to really see things happen.

Wrt the Ferrari discussions several different issues there, while the Ferrari engines are even fire like 911s the 2 designs work somewhat differently.

The 4-1 design if properly implemented will produce more peak hp but over a narrower rev range, it relies on the single rarefacted signal originating at the open collector, the 4-2-1 has 2 collectors and thus develops 2 rarefacted signals at 2 different rpm points, these 2 weaker signals spread the torque curve out more than the single strong signal developed by the single 4-1 collector

Another issue is collector size, the more gas that flows into the collector at a given point in time the larger the collector needs to be, while a 4L Ferrari and 4L Porsche flow the same volume at a given rpm the pulses are closer together on the Ferrari. The closer pulse spacing wants a somewhat larger collector volume.

Yes all of these tuned systems work only over a narrow rev range, the 4-1 narrower than the 4-2, As a result they are designed to be beneficial at high rpm where they generate the most benefit, the corollary to that is they can actually be harmful elsewhere in the rev range.

And again I'd like to stress the fact that a muffler at the very least mutes and more often cancels the acoustic signal that promotes the desirable scavenging phase. To get the full benefit of a tuned system you need open or even better tuned cones added after the collector, a single cone acts like the 4-1 header, a single stronger return, adding a short reverse cone to the long cone acts like the 4-2-1 and smears the signal out a bit, it's not as strong but it is beneficial over a wider rev range.

Yes the length of the primary and anny bends or transitions is also important but less so than you might think, It is common for a 1" to 2" difference in primary pipe length to be found, this does affect performance but to a very minor degree.

An interesting twist(as long as open pipes are used is the stepped design, each step or transition also generates a reflected signal so is a further implementation of the 4-2- concept

In a Porsche 3-2-1 does the same

here's a really nice Porsche 3-2-1 design, again relying on open pipes

[Cory M]

I've got George's headers on a couple of cars now and have run them for years. Good "off the shelf" performance. Not the ultimate performance, but pretty decent and definitely good enough for most. They were a solid economical solution when I bought mine for around $700 a set. I just clicked on the GT link posted above and they are now $955+. That's still much cheaper than the custom headers most of the racers out here run, but quite a price hike.

The problem, at least in a racing application where the temps and vibrations are high, is that the flanges will eventually crack and break off. I have had this happen a few times on a few different Georges headers. They needed to be welded back together. I add gussets to the flanges now which helps a lot. The mild steel material, which helped keep the price down, just isn't as durable as stainless. It's usually thicker and heavier than stainless too. We've owned another 911 race car with custom stainless headers for over a decade and have basically had no issues with them. If I were in the market for new headers, and planned on driving the car a lot or keeping it forever, I'd consider spending more for some quality stainless headers that should be trouble free

[Mahler9th]

So I guess a little more, since the thread has morphed a bit....

I have seen, though not experienced some of the things that Cory mentioned. Kind of a common experience, though in the cases I have seen(racing and high performance driving) it took years for something to happen, and welding/gusseting was a relatively simple/cheap fix.

Like I said, I owned a set of the S Car Go parts. I did not pay $3k+ as I got them used. I sold them in these forums a few years ago. Miss them! Had to sell them for a race class/engine spec change. The guy that makes them for S Car Go is a local racing acquaintance and is more than a bit of a header guru.

I think Pete Weber (Quiet Horsepower) still makes headers. he is located here in Norcal not far from where I live. Most famous in our circles for Phase 9 mufflers.

Folks should remember that there are many versions of headers for these cars on E Bay. Last time I looked there were stainless replicas of S Car Go, Bursch, Borla and European headers. Not sure of aggregate experience with any of these.

My current racing class requires 1 5/8 OD max (any wall thickness, wink).

I bought a set of stainless headers from Mr. William Knight, who often vistits these forums. Mine are stainless and multi-piece just like the S Car Go units, with a very nice merge collector. There is a thread on these in these forums.

I showed them to a couple of world famous 911 engine builders and they liked them. They have held up well so far. They were about the same price as a GT Racing European header set.

[jamesjedi]

I just bought a pair of the GT-Racing type headers from this forum. I see that this thread has taken its omw path, hopefully the OP does not mind me asking about ceramic coating or jet hot, or what may may them have a longer life?

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Originally Posted by Cory M

I've got George's headers on a couple of cars now and have run them for years. Good "off the shelf" performance. Not the ultimate performance, but pretty decent and definitely good enough for most. They were a solid economical solution when I bought mine for around $700 a set. I just clicked on the GT link posted above and they are now $955+. That's still much cheaper than the custom headers most of the racers out here run, but quite a price hike.

The problem, at least in a racing application where the temps and vibrations are high, is that the flanges will eventually crack and break off. I have had this happen a few times on a few different Georges headers. They needed to be welded back together. I add gussets to the flanges now which helps a lot. The mild steel material, which helped keep the price down, just isn't as durable as stainless. It's usually thicker and heavier than stainless too. We've owned another 911 race car with custom stainless headers for over a decade and have basically had no issues with them. If I were in the market for new headers, and planned on driving the car a lot or keeping it forever, I'd consider spending more for some quality stainless headers that should be trouble free

Cory,
Here is my gusset effort to support the extractor tube, I shamelessly plagiarized what Geo had done to the header flange, how come us SoCal guys have this happen to us....?

[Cory M]

My gussets look similar. I've seen other pics of the headers with the gussets but none of mine came with them (1.5, 1.625, & 1.75" sizes). Maybe they have been redesigned and come with the gussets already now. That would be an improvement.

[TimT]

I have had Georges headers and M&K headers in various iterations..

This pic.. M&K with a V band clamp... and the George headers, I bought them already coated with Jet hot.. but without the street adapters...and then strangely enough found a set of street adapters with Swain coatings...



M&K system in car...

[KTL]

I think the headers crack at the flanges because the exhaust is typically poorly supported with band clamps. If the exhaust is more rigidly attached then the exhaust doesn't flex as much. B&B mufflers on these old 911 engines are notorious for cracking because their mounting bracket breaks and then the muffler is just floating out there, flexing up and down off the end of the headers.

[Cory M]

I've had them break on well supported exhausts that are significantly lighter than a factory muffler. I just think stainless has superior properties at elevated temperatures, so they don't break as often (or ever if you are lucky). I haven't had any issues since welding on the gussets though. If I got another new set I'd weld the gussets on before mounting them up just to be safe.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Cory M

I've had them break on well supported exhausts that are significantly lighter than a factory muffler. I just think stainless has superior properties at elevated temperatures, so they don't break as often (or ever if you are lucky). I haven't had any issues since welding on the gussets though. If I got another new set I'd weld the gussets on before mounting them up just to be safe.

Inconel is een better