Longhood vs IB handling: What year transitions most significantly?

[Maxhouse97]

I own an 87 that I may be regrettably selling (see nearby thread), and was thinking that I might want to move next to a longhood. The main thing I would be looking for is that true lightweight, go-kart type handling and fun-to-drive characteristic.

Question is could I get close to this by buying a 74 instead of a longhood to increase availability and save money? I drove a 74 once and it felt like a Miata compared to my 87 (87 has 225/245 x 17” tires). I tried to lighten my 87 (got it down to 2600) to get to this feeling, but it never quite got there. I’ve read that G-bodies can never approach a longhood for that tossability ... not sure why.

So what year range does the above characteristic change? Is it the 2.7 cars? Can you get an SC close? Or do I need to get a true longhood?

[AFB24911S]

I've had a 1977 911 S Targa for about 2 years now, and I test drove it back-to-back with an '86 Targa and a brand new Miata for that exact reason. The 911 felt lighter, peppier, and just as go-karty. It wasn't modified at all, and it had 205k miles on it when I bought it. The 2.7 revved a lot more eagerly, changed direction quicker, and still felt fast in a straight line.

I was living in California at the time and had the luxury of test driving a bunch of unique cars, but I would still suggest driving your (super cool!) 911 to test drive a 2.7 and a long hood if you get the chance. No idea what a long hood car is like. I have heard that the 1973.5 fuel injected cars are something truly special.

[Arne2]

I went from an '84 coupe to a '72 911T. The long hood is far more interactive and responsive. I believe the mid-year cars ('74-77) feel lighter than the SC/Carreras mostly due to the narrower tires. With wider, heavier wheels and tires they feel more like an SC or Carrera. Beyond the tire difference, the biggest difference is the polar inertia. The extra weight on a short hood car is at the very far ends of the car. That bumper weight makes the IB cars less responsive to changing direction.

[356911930]

Yes! You will be very happy with the 1974. Get one and make it your own. A little lighter, a little suspension and engine work and you will have exactly whatyou are looking for.

Best of luck,

Rahl

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

I’ve only driven the 1984-88 cars and 1969-73 cars and for me there was no comparison, I had to own the earlier car. No regrets. Enjoy every drive.

[ChrisHoover]

I've only driven my Cayman and my 65. The Cayman is heavier, it has electric stuff, its scary fast to me, it starts every time, has heated seats and a crappy nav system. It is fun and comfortable.

My old car is long hooded, short wheel based, flat sided, and skinny tired. It is very light, mostly starts, is all mechanical and by throwing the forward lever, you ankles will get warm. It is slower than the Cayman but it is more fun. I've have yet to purposely slide it although over the summer I did slide right through a turn that was a bit unnerving yet exhilarating.

I have never driven a Miata but I had 72 510. I drove the hell out of the 510 sliding all over the rural county I lived in. The 510 was very light and 90hp. It was so much fun to drive. My old Porsche is a lot that old 510 only a little more sophisticated and a little more quirky.

[Evan Fullerton]

1972 first year of the 915 gear box

1976 was the last year of the manual brakes

1978 I believe is when the clutch arm gained the Omega Spring

1987 first year of the g50 gearbox, hydraulic clutch, and crazy heavy stock flywheel/clutch setup

Anything pre '72 with a 901 trans and stock engine feels very different with no torque. The '72 2.4 was the first car that had some grunt.

The change to boosted brakes is pretty significant in my mind on the driving feel and one I am not fond of.

The lighter over center clutch feel of the cars with the Omega spring also removes some of the early 911 feel.

The suspension setup really didn't change much from '73 or so onwards but the cars got heavier and softer controls, taller gearing, and heavier wheels and tires all of which detract from the raw engaging feel of the early cars.

[Maxhouse97]

Great comments - thanks for the kind words. I guess the main point to focus on is the difference between 73 vs 74-77. If you aren’t worried about originality, can you build a car with a nice longhood conversion that drove like the 73? If you can a whole number of great cars open up to you at a much better price, leaving more room for tasteful mods.

I have to do some research on the differences here, but I’m not as worried about technical details but rather how they feel. Again the car I drove was a 74 and it certainly felt this way. But I haven’t driven a 73.

[paul_howey]

You can get your 87’ where you want it but you are looking at a full backdate of the body work (long hood conversion) and losing weight anywhere else that you can.

The pre-74’ cars are great but after a few months you will likely want to make some updates coming from an 87-89 car.

You also have arguably one of the best transmissions Porsche built and the weight differences compared to a 915 is not that much more. I believe the numbers for the G50 vs 915 are 16lbs heavier on the transmission itself and 11lbs heavier on the clutch. The flywheel should be the same weight.

The bottomline is that you have a lot investing in your 87’ and for a little bit more, you can probably get it where you want it to be. My recommendation would be to get some seat time in a few older cars and take notes about what you prefer about them and then apply it. These cars are fundamentally the same and it’s just a matter of removing/adding the right components.

The 87-89 cars are arguably some of the best 911’s mechanically but they have a lot of unnecessary bloat. I think you have a good car that can get you what you want but that’s just my .02

[JonT]

interesting thread. My 80SC has full suspension update with bigger torsion bars, bigger sways, and revalved Bilsteins, 225fr/255/r tires, and feels very responsive. I've never driven a pre-SC 911 to compare. Maybe sometimes its better to not know what you're missing.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

Great comments - thanks for the kind words. I guess the main point to focus on is the difference between 73 vs 74-77. If you aren’t worried about originality, can you build a car with a nice longhood conversion that drove like the 73? If you can a whole number of great cars open up to you at a much better price, leaving more room for tasteful mods.

I have to do some research on the differences here, but I’m not as worried about technical details but rather how they feel. Again the car I drove was a 74 and it certainly felt this way. But I haven’t driven a 73.

The short answer is that "yes" you can accomplish this. The problem is that once you start down this slippery slope the tendency is to make everything (suspension, motor, brakes, etc) the best that it can be and you will end up with an amazing feeling/driving car but it also won't feel like a pre-74' car.

I guess the first order of business would be to get some seat time in a pre-74' and see if you like how it drives. Based on your current list of mods, I think you will like the lightness and the sound of a 73' and earlier car but that might be about it. I personally love the look of the long hoods (hence why I did the conversion on mine) but I also wanted the car to feel confident on the road so I have a list of mods similar to yours.

Personally, I think a long hood conversion/backdate (will lose a lot of weight), SSI's w/ 2 in - 2 out muffler (wakes up the 3.2 big-time and sounds amazing), and a bit more weight reduction will get you where you want to be.

My prediction and I could be wrong, is that you will sell the 87' for 55-65k which will be enough for a 70-73 911 T driver condition car that you are then going to respend a lot of the same money to "update" (suspension, brakes, etc) as well as fix any little issues. So at the end of the day, it will still end up driving more like a 74'+ 911 anyway.

If you do decide to go the conversion route, feel free to PM me. I can give some advice on what to do and (more importantly) what not to do.

[RWebb]

'74 will drive like a LWB early car and is a lot cheaper - is or was the real value proposition since everybody hated the Mg case, but the '74s escaped thermal reactors - buyers may have caught on to that by now

SWB will feel more like a Go-Cart, and will spin more easily

RS60 is what the go carters really want but many settle for a 914 or 914/6

my ultimate 911 would be a '72 body with the wonderful road-racing shift pattern & nice, light feeling type 911 trans (often called 901) and lightened, then motorvated by a hotrod 2.8L fully Ollie'd Mg case, twin-plugged EFI

but I've settled for a 'lightened '73 with hotrod twin-plugged, PMO carbed 3.2L & '75 915 box

you can get a bit more top-end hp on a 3.2L that is cammed up by going with RarelyL8's setup instead of SSIs - how often will you do that on the street?

The territory has been pretty fully explored, you just need a map and some ground-truth - so like the man said drive a few and escape the luxo-barge G50 Carreras

[Maxhouse97]

Thanks Paul - you are one of the few who have said I can get there with my 87. I do love my car, and may keep it regardless of this discussion, but I also am reluctant to dump another 10k into it doing a longhood conversion to get to that go-kart feeling and find out I failed. Guess it’s hard too as a lot of this is subjective. I do enjoy the conversation though.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

I own an 87 that I may be regrettably selling (see nearby thread), and was thinking that I might want to move next to a longhood. The main thing I would be looking for is that true lightweight, go-kart type handling and fun-to-drive characteristic.

Question is could I get close to this by buying a 74 instead of a longhood to increase availability and save money? I drove a 74 once and it felt like a Miata compared to my 87 (87 has 225/245 x 17” tires). I tried to lighten my 87 (got it down to 2600) to get to this feeling, but it never quite got there. I’ve read that G-bodies can never approach a longhood for that tossability ... not sure why.

So what year range does the above characteristic change? Is it the 2.7 cars? Can you get an SC close? Or do I need to get a true longhood?

The biggest difference that affects the dynamics is weight and where that weight is placed

compare a 1973 2.7 RS to a 1976 Carrera 3.0 to a 1987 Carrera 3.2

w/b is the same
o/a length goes from 4147mm to 4291mm(these #s are per factory, though I swear the US rubber bumper guards stick out further than the euro '76 versions)
the bumpers extend further and weigh much more, I had a '72S steel bumper spoiler on my '72 that weighed ~10# the '76 equivalent weighed over 25#, on both cars I replaced the oe w/ f/g parts @ ~6# & 9# respectively. The rear bumpers on the '72 were ~12# the '76 (remember a RoW) ~24#, no idea what an '87 rear is but I'm sure it's much more than the RoW76

the trans weights got from ~100# to ~122# to ~150#, varying by lsd or not by ~15#, but this weigh is concentrated near the CoM so doesn't affect dynamics much

engines will have a larger affect being further from CoM going from ~400# to ~410# to ~482#,biggest differences here are AC or no, air pump or not and them Mg or Al. and type of intake

the DIN curb weight goes from ~2365# to 2464#(though when I weighed mine it was 2401#) to 2750# So all the newer stuff adds up to ~385# more for the '87 vs '73, power to weigh goes from 11.3 to 11.5, not much change

the closer to the CoM any mass is the less leverage it has,
When I put f/g bumpers on the '72 it didn't appreciably change the feel, when I put f/g bumpers on the '76 the dynamics changed dramatically, back to back you could feel the car turning in more freely and w/ less rock on undulations. Hard to say if it was comparable to the '72 but I'd say at least very, very close

The other thing that changes feel is tires, On the '72 I went from 4x 185/70 on 6x15 to 215/235 on 7 & 8 x15, this made the steering much heavier until you got up to speed than not much difference though grip levels were much higher and over steer much reduced

the '76 came w/ 7 & 8x15 205/22,and was a rocket ship in its day, since i've used 7 & 8 x16 205/225, 8 &9x16 225/245 7 & 9 205/245 8 9.5 235/275 225/255, The larger wheels and tires on the latter chassis did pretty much the same as on the '72, The biggest thing I learned was to be very conscious of tire OD as it can have a huge effect on acceleration or perceived pep

So can you get the '87 to handle more like a '72 probably at least close but you will need to sacrifice at the very least bumpers, You can go further w/ f/g or c/f hood(f/r), remove sunroof go to lighter seats lighter carpet and not least if you stick w/ 7 & 8 x16 Fuchs change to 205/50 & 225/45 tires(these will liven the car noticeably over 205/55 & 225/50)

stock ride height of all of them is the same @108+/5mm & 12+/-5mm, all can benefit from judicious lowering

the early cars have 19/23mm t-bars the '87 19/25, a little stiffer t-bar does wonders for any of them as well, tweek w/ sways if you must the '87 already has some pretty hefty sways though

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

Thanks Paul - you are one of the few who have said I can get there with my 87. I do love my car, and may keep it regardless of this discussion, but I also am reluctant to dump another 10k into it doing a longhood conversion to get to that go-kart feeling and find out I failed. Guess it’s hard too as a lot of this is subjective. I do enjoy the conversation though.

My pleasure! If you are ever in the Nashville area you are welcome to take mine for a spin.

I don't know if the finances will allow for it but I always think having at least one hotrod 911 in the garage is a good idea. This allows you to buy other stuff and just enjoy it for what it is and hop back in your other car when you want a little bit more.

I would honestly keep the 87' and just start a fund for the next car.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The biggest difference that affects the dynamics is weight and where that weight is placed

compare a 1973 2.7 RS to a 1976 Carrera 3.0 to a 1987 Carrera 3.2

w/b is the same
o/a length goes from 4147mm to 4291mm(these #s are per factory, though I swear the US rubber bumper guards stick out further than the euro '76 versions)
the bumpers extend further and weigh much more, I had a '72S steel bumper spoiler on my '72 that weighed ~10# the '76 equivalent weighed over 25#, on both cars I replaced the oe w/ f/g parts @ ~6# & 9# respectively. The rear bumpers on the '72 were ~12# the '76 (remember a RoW) ~24#, no idea what an '87 rear is but I'm sure it's much more than the RoW76

the trans weights got from ~100# to ~122# to ~150#, varying by lsd or not by ~15#, but this weigh is concentrated near the CoM so doesn't affect dynamics much

engines will have a larger affect being further from CoM going from ~400# to ~410# to ~482#,biggest differences here are AC or no, air pump or not and them Mg or Al. and type of intake

the DIN curb weight goes from ~2365# to 2464#(though when I weighed mine it was 2401#) to 2750# So all the newer stuff adds up to ~385# more for the '87 vs '73, power to weigh goes from 11.3 to 11.5, not much change

the closer to the CoM any mass is the less leverage it has,
When I put f/g bumpers on the '72 it didn't appreciably change the feel, when I put f/g bumpers on the '76 the dynamics changed dramatically, back to back you could feel the car turning in more freely and w/ less rock on undulations. Hard to say if it was comparable to the '72 but I'd say at least very, very close

The other thing that changes feel is tires, On the '72 I went from 4x 185/70 on 6x15 to 215/235 on 7 & 8 x15, this made the steering much heavier until you got up to speed than not much difference though grip levels were much higher and over steer much reduced

the '76 came w/ 7 & 8x15 205/22,and was a rocket ship in its day, since i've used 7 & 8 x16 205/225, 8 &9x16 225/245 7 & 9 205/245 8 9.5 235/275 225/255, The larger wheels and tires on the latter chassis did pretty much the same as on the '72, The biggest thing I learned was to be very conscious of tire OD as it can have a huge effect on acceleration or perceived pep

So can you get the '87 to handle more like a '72 probably at least close but you will need to sacrifice at the very least bumpers, You can go further w/ f/g or c/f hood(f/r), remove sunroof go to lighter seats lighter carpet and not least if you stick w/ 7 & 8 x16 Fuchs change to 205/50 & 225/45 tires(these will liven the car noticeably over 205/55 & 225/50)

stock ride height of all of them is the same @108+/5mm & 12+/-5mm, all can benefit from judicious lowering

the early cars have 19/23mm t-bars the '87 19/25, a little stiffer t-bar does wonders for any of them as well, tweek w/ sways if you must the '87 already has some pretty hefty sways though

Excellent info here!

[RarlyL8]

Backdating won't lower the weight any more than just putting fiberglass G-body bumpers on, much cheaper as well. If you follow that pattern with everything in the car and keep your stock parts then you can have the best of both worlds. Your Carrera has already had the interior modified so no big leap. I just sold an '87 and purchased a '73.5 for the same money. You can't trade even up for the same condition vehicle. The '87 was a really nice car, '73.5 needs work.
Another consideration is engine mods. With the 3.2L Carrera you have EFI, my tuned exhaust system with chip can get you from 217hp to 250hp. Add Sal's injection mods for even more. The 2.4L CIS may gain 15hp with tuned headers and set of Webers replacing the CIS. Not much else you can do without going into the engine or stand alone EFI/engine management. It's going to cost you a lot more to go faster in the early car which is why engine swaps are so popular.

[BLACK3.2]

I’m with the ruthless lightening crowd.

[BLACK3.2]

Remove the stereo, speakers and AC, remove the carpet and sound deadening, remove frunk carpet, spare tire, bumper reinforcements, add an alu hood and lighter rear deck, lightweight seats, RS door panels, single-mass flywheel, delete the sunroof, lightweight battery. Have no mercy.

I remember seeing a video a couple years ago of a chap who'd done a build like that. He took the interior down to bare metal and polished it. It was amazing, and it still retained the G body look.

I do think the G bodies will one day become just as desirable as the long hoods. Don't backdate!

[OSC911]

I have a ‘76 non sunroof coupe - no a/c, no power windows, no radio, no brake booster. It is a very fun car to drive - like go cart handling as previously stated. It is about as close to a long hood as I can get without the expense. I have had an SC and a 3.2 Carrera and I would rate the fun factor higher than both of these cars. In saying that, I never tried to shed weight from either but I am sure the less weight equals more fun. I am currently converting to a 3 litre with ITB so I hope I don’t spoil the feel of the car. I am fairly confident it won’t. My advice is to keep your ‘87 and loose some weight from it. You might not get the exact long hood experience but might get close.