Longhood vs IB handling: What year transitions most significantly?

[Rodknock2]

Not sure for most but I’ve driven an ‘87 911 numerous times, owned a ‘74 and now own a 73.5 (911T). Been there done that with 5.0 mustangs. I’ve owned a Miata with a limited slip. Auto-crossed friends Miatas. There’s is nothing in this world that beats a 73.5. Not sure what it is, but a great road car, a true pleasure to drive (once warmed up, I might add haha) No exploding air boxes in awhile

[Ducks]

Although weight is the main component here one of the things that is overlooked is that the steering rack ratio changed significantly from the early cars to the 3.2. From the 964 and onward they went down again. In my 3.2 I want to a quaife quick steering rack and it made a huge difference in the feel and sharpness of the steering. You do lose the relaxed highway cruising feel,

[famoroso]

Originally Posted by Ducks

Although weight is the main component here one of the things that is overlooked is that the steering rack ratio changed significantly from the early cars to the 3.2. From the 964 and onward they went down again. In my 3.2 I want to a quaife quick steering rack and it made a huge difference in the feel and sharpness of the steering. You do lose the relaxed highway cruising feel,

I could see that. When I was on this section of road in my '87...





...I was wishing for some closer ratio steering (or, my Lotus Elise).

Perhaps I'll source a spare rack and rebuild it with the Quaife goodies.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Ducks

Although weight is the main component here one of the things that is overlooked is that the steering rack ratio changed significantly from the early cars to the 3.2. From the 964 and onward they went down again. In my 3.2 I want to a quaife quick steering rack and it made a huge difference in the feel and sharpness of the steering. You do lose the relaxed highway cruising feel,

I only have reliable records that go back to MY72 but for ever year and every street car modal 911 the steering has been a ZF 17.78:1

964 p/s went to 18.75 and 993 p/s went to 16.48 except for 993RS p/s which was 18.25


there were some small difference is steering wheel size, scrub radius, camber and caster that all leave a bit of an imprint on steering feel from '72 to '89 but not as much as the imprint of the polar moment increase

Porsche actual went out of their way to increase the polar moment of the very early cars by adding bumper weights and eventually the the batteries in the front corners, eliminating all of that w/ the G Series car and newer

[Peter M]

Bill,

Thanks for your factual, data based opinions. It would be so easy for these threads to go way off track into fantasy land without them!

Just with the steering ratios, Tobias Aichele in his book "Porsche 911 - Forever Young" tables the following ratios:
1964 to end of the G Model - all 17.87
964's - 18.48
993's 16.48 (The book's data ends at the first year of the 993)

Regards
Peter

[rumlyne]

Did 914's use the same ratio rack&pinion

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Peter M

Bill,

Thanks for your factual, data based opinions. It would be so easy for these threads to go way off track into fantasy land without them!

Just with the steering ratios, Tobias Aichele in his book "Porsche 911 - Forever Young" tables the following ratios:
1964 to end of the G Model - all 17.87
964's - 18.48
993's 16.48 (The book's data ends at the first year of the 993)

Regards
Peter

Thanks for the 964 #, I had to estimate that based on the turns ratio

[panzerfaust]

Hello Bill, you can add this to your chart list..

After asking umpteen times on the forums here on what the 2.5 quaife’s quick rack steering ratio is I finally gave up and just measured it myself. It’s 15:1

I do aled in a custom anti-dive angle while I’m at it.

Ps interesting question, what were some of the 2.5 ST and 3.0 RSR cars were since some used bent steering arms to quicken the steering ratio and address the bumpsteer?

Cheers

[famoroso]

Originally Posted by dwelle

FG bumper blades are available from getty as well. i'm fitting a set to my '74 as we speak. 1st year IB car, so i want to keep the bellows and narrow bumperettes, but i'm also trying to hit 2100 lbs. i fab'd up some aluminum to replace the crush tubes, they weigh almost nothing.

we shall see...

Oh, aluminum crush tubes would be nice! Pics? Any chance you weighed them?

[dwelle]

i haven’t weighed them, but need to. they weigh next to nothing....

[stevesc_us]

[QUOTE=famoroso;11172117]I could see that. When I was on this section of road in my '87...





Frank,

Check your inbox. I just sent you a message. Thanks Steve

[Maxhouse97]

Reviving this thread to provide an update. I regrettably ended up selling my 87 (sorry Paul) on BaT. The good news is I was able to do well enough to be able to pick up one of these:



Was able to pick it up in Germany, drive on the Nurburgring, tour around the south near the mountains, etc. It is an amazing car and was an experience I will never forget!

However I find myself back here reading about middies and mag case 915s … why? Because I still want that lightweight, go-kart like experience (I’ve had 3 Miatas in the family and I peruse Elise ads frequently but can’t deal with the quality/reliability/parts). So while my timeline may be a bit longer now (the GT4 isn’t going anywhere), I’m still craving the aircooled experience.

However now that mid-year prices have gone up and longhood prices have flattened or even come down, to the question I posed around a original longhood vs a backdated mid-year with all the same criteria/costs/performance objectives … I was convinced the mid-year was the answer. But is it much closer now or reversed due to the above?

Good news is I have time to decide. Here is my current plan, as I have kids and a job that limits current free time:

- Buy a used motor in a couple of years after we build a garage addition for my new workshop
- Take the next year or two to rebuild it (thinking 3.0 to 3.2SS with EFI that has decent torque but can still zing to 7000 in order to match the character I am looking for). I love mechanical things and have always had a desire to do a rebuild on my own. By this time my girls will be teenagers and won’t have anything to do with me
- Then buy either a 73 or 74-77 with a tired motor or in the case of the mid-year a tired paint job, fix it up/paint/backdate, and drop my rebuilt motor in. Keep it light, narrow bodied, 15” lightweight wheels with 205-225 tires, and drive the hell out of it.

My hope is to replicate the Miata-like feel with a car that has much more panache, allows me to invest substantial money without feeling bad, but still enables me to tinker (I love how these cars are like Legos).

So back to the question (now that the 87 is out) - 73 vs 74-77? What’s the right move?

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

Reviving this thread to provide an update. I regrettably ended up selling my 87 (sorry Paul) on BaT. The good news is I was able to do well enough to be able to pick up one of these:



Was able to pick it up in Germany, drive on the Nurburgring, tour around the south near the mountains, etc. It is an amazing car and was an experience I will never forget!

However I find myself back here reading about middies and mag case 915s … why? Because I still want that lightweight, go-kart like experience (I’ve had 3 Miatas in the family and I peruse Elise ads frequently but can’t deal with the quality/reliability/parts). So while my timeline may be a bit longer now (the GT4 isn’t going anywhere), I’m still craving the aircooled experience.

However now that mid-year prices have gone up and longhood prices have flattened or even come down, to the question I posed around a original longhood vs a backdated mid-year with all the same criteria/costs/performance objectives … I was convinced the mid-year was the answer. But is it much closer now or reversed due to the above?

Good news is I have time to decide. Here is my current plan, as I have kids and a job that limits current free time:

- Buy a used motor in a couple of years after we build a garage addition for my new workshop
- Take the next year or two to rebuild it (thinking 3.0 to 3.2SS with EFI that has decent torque but can still zing to 7000 in order to match the character I am looking for). I love mechanical things and have always had a desire to do a rebuild on my own. By this time my girls will be teenagers and won’t have anything to do with me
- Then buy either a 73 or 74-77 with a tired motor or in the case of the mid-year a tired paint job, fix it up/paint/backdate, and drop my rebuilt motor in. Keep it light, narrow bodied, 15” lightweight wheels with 205-225 tires, and drive the hell out of it.

My hope is to replicate the Miata-like feel with a car that has much more panache, allows me to invest substantial money without feeling bad, but still enables me to tinker (I love how these cars are like Legos).

So back to the question (now that the 87 is out) - 73 vs 74-77? What’s the right move?

Congrats on the GT4! I purchase a 718 GT4 as well at the beginning of 2022 and just sold it in September. Absolutely great car and my only reason for selling was that after a long weekend trip with a group of friends and the GT4 on a drive in the mountains, I came back home realizing I wasn’t a mid engine guy. But the car is epic!

I used the funds from that purchase to buy a one-owner 1969 911 E. I’m still waiting on the car to arrive from Europe but I should see it in my garage right after the new year.

My plan is to now take my 88 backdate hotrod and go even crazier now that I have another aircooled car in the garage. The 69 will likely stay mostly original with the exception of some light restoration (suspension, brakes, etc).

While LH prices have stabilized and even come down, after roughly 6-9 months of searching for my 69, I can honestly say that most of the LH cars that “reasonably” priced have a lot of issues and/or stories. I can’t even begin to tell you the number of deals that fell through during inspection on various LH cars. And most of them were over 100k… So I decided to bite the bullet, increase the budget and go for the best car I could find.

IMHO, if you want the LH experience, chase originality and condition. This will unfortunately come with a hefty price tag, which also means those cars aren’t really hotrod candidates.

If you want to go hotrod, the galvanized IB cars are still the best starting point. They are less expensive to buy and will cost far less to get the project to the finish line.

If I was going to hotrod a LH car, I would probably go either MFI twin plug 2.5 or RS spec 2.7. Anything more and the motor will begin to lose that early character that LH cars are known for.

On my 88, I will likely do a twin plug 3.4 build and hopefully get around 280-290hp which is perfect for the car’s weight (now sits at 2300lbs).

So IMO, if the goal is to go hotrod, find a rust free IB car and start there. You will spend a ton more money starting with a solid LH car and just end up in the same place at the end of the day.

[Maxhouse97]

Awesome - congrats Paul! For me my second Porsche was a Cayman, so I came to love the platform. And I’ve always wanted a GT car. I had to make a call between the GT4 and a 997 GT3. The GT4 won out because I could buy it new and do the euro delivery, which was a bucket list item for me.

Yes I think I agree on the IB car, I’m leaning mid-year. Would also appeal to my tinkering side. I’m not looking for a show car, but something to drive and have fun with. And it would fit my desired spending profile a bit more, with a lower initial amount and spend over the years to refine the build.

[paul_howey]

Originally Posted by Maxhouse97

Awesome - congrats Paul! For me my second Porsche was a Cayman, so I came to love the platform. And I’ve always wanted a GT car. I had to make a call between the GT4 and a 997 GT3. The GT4 won out because I could buy it new and do the euro delivery, which was a bucket list item for me.

Yes I think I agree on the IB car, I’m leaning mid-year. Would also appeal to my tinkering side. I’m not looking for a show car, but something to drive and have fun with. And it would fit my desired spending profile a bit more, with a lower initial amount and spend over the years to refine the build.

Thanks!

The GT4 is honestly a perfect car. I still struggle to find anything objectively wrong with it. I’m definitely the problem lol

I honestly think that if you are willing to go all-in on a hotrod build, you will get to where you want with an IB car. All the added weight comes from all of the crap Porsche added over the years. Making weight reduction a primary focus will get you that LH feel but in a much more solid package for less $$$.

Looking forward to seeing how your build progresses!

[blucille]

Originally Posted by paul_howey

Thanks!

The GT4 is honestly a perfect car. I still struggle to find anything objectively wrong with it. I’m definitely the problem lol

I honestly think that if you are willing to go all-in on a hotrod build, you will get to where you want with an IB car. All the added weight comes from all of the crap Porsche added over the years. Making weight reduction a primary focus will get you that LH feel but in a much more solid package for less $$$.

Looking forward to seeing how your build progresses!

I've got one too. 981-GT4--Its only flaw is the electric emergency/parking, and the switch by your left knee...whether it's a push or pull to engage/disengage and the (seemingly forever) 1.5 second delay before the switch actually makes anything happen.

I'd rather drive my air cooled cars most of the time, but a modern GT car is pretty sublime.

[ADDvanced]

Originally Posted by Hi_Fi_Guy

I’ve only driven the 1984-88 cars and 1969-73 cars and for me there was no comparison, I had to own the earlier car. No regrets. Enjoy every drive.

I noticed you left some years out

[ADDvanced]

Originally Posted by dwelle

i haven’t weighed them, but need to. they weigh next to nothing....

I just did this modification and weight them both on a scale. The euro crush tubes are 3lbs lighter than the shock bumper supports. So 6lbs savings on each end of the car, 12lb total.

[70SWT]

As one more data point: over the course of at least 20 years, I have owned multiple longhood and shorthood 911s (nothing driveable that was older than 1969 or newer than 1988), with multiple lightweight and widebody versions of each.

My experience jibes with Bill's and others here in that I know of no inherent technical factor pertaining to the longhood vs. shorthood platforms that would favor the former in terms of nimbleness and handling. Stripped to the chassis, on a coupe vs. coupe or targa vs. targa basis, they are extremely similar in terms of anything a regular guy could detect when driving.

The two main factors in nimble handling are what is bolted to the chassis: (1) tires/wheels (both in terms of weight and width) and (2) overall weight. Whether longhood or shorthood, if they are lighter with narrower tires, either generation will feel markedly more nimble and very similar to each other.

The newer they are, generally, the more heavy BS is bolted to them - if you leave them stock, then the newer ones feel bogged down. One exception is that the aluminum trailing arms and front crossmember in later cars are actually lighter - all else being equal, that one factor favors the newer cars.

As one guy says, there is a lot of fantasy and mythology associated with the longhood era. The main thing that differentiates them is their appearance and the fact that they rust a lot more!