Alignment issues, 1969 911.

[kav]

I recently replaced the front suspension and upgraded to turbo tie rod ends. All went well on the install. I also decided (while I'm in there!) to upgrade the rear spring plates with quick adjustable units from Rebel Racing and 27mm torsion bars (fronts are now 21mm). Again all seemed to go well on the install until I got to the alignment.

The front alignment although tricky with the caster / camber and toe got to some decent specs seeing how I run the car low. (24" in the rear, 24.5" up front).

The rear was a pain in the rear! I couldn't get the right rear to toe in, the eccentric bolt would reach it's max and pop back around to toe out. The left rear is at it's max too and the wheel has a little bit of toe out.

Any idea why I can't get these to pull the wheel in enough to give me 0 toe?

I spent two long days trying to get this right but defeated!

Any help would be very much appreciated.

Some pics of the tedious process!

The all new parts;



I built some 8" risers with a turn plate on top to help me get under the car and make adjustments



String around the car is parallel and equal distance from each wheel.







The right rear is toed out a huge amount and the eccentric toe bolt will not pull it in.



The right rear eccentric bolts. Toe on the left of this image, Camber on the right. (I did remove the sway bar before adjusting).

[Dpmulvan]

All my answers were going to involve spring plates but seeing as how they’re brand new I don’t have any answers other than Did you have new spring plate bushings installed?

[kav]

Originally Posted by Dpmulvan

All my answers were going to involve spring plates but seeing as how they’re brand new I don’t have any answers other than Did you have new spring plate bushings installed?

Yes the spring plates come with new bushings.

[snbush67]

I ran into this same problem with the adjustable spring plates, at first I thought the spring plates were shorter, but they matched the stock ones exactly.

As you correctly point out - Toe is the bolt that goes through the vertical hole in the spring plate, the toe bolt is the one toward the front of the car. Camber goes through the horizontal hole, the bolt to the rear of the car.

I am forgetting how I got to zero toe, nothing in my notes. I do remember that the toe bolt didn’t do what I thought it would, that it didn’t have to be set at full out, rather the toe bolt and camber bolts work together to get to a happy medium. I think I lifted the car and removed the wheels, Then I jacked the hubs up to ride height and set the bolts in the same position as they were on the original plates, you can see the outlines on the photo of the original spring plates.

Or I might have loosened the trailing arm attachment bolts, then put the toe and camber bolts in place and then tightened the trailing arm bolts.

Whatever I did I ended up with 0 toe and -1.8 camber. I’m at 24.5 in the rear, and 24.8 in the front.

[kav]

Originally Posted by snbush67

I ran into this same problem with the adjustable spring plates, at first I thought the spring plates were shorter, but they matched the stock ones exactly.

As you correctly point out - Toe is the bolt that goes through the vertical hole in the spring plate, the toe bolt is the one toward the front of the car. Camber goes through the horizontal hole, the bolt to the rear of the car.

I am forgetting how I got to zero toe, nothing in my notes. I do remember that the toe bolt didn’t do what I thought it would, that it didn’t have to be set at full out, rather the toe bolt and camber bolts work together to get to a happy medium. I think I lifted the car and removed the wheels, Then I jacked the hubs up to ride height and set the bolts in the same position as they were on the original plates, you can see the outlines on the photo of the original spring plates.

Or I might have loosened the trailing arm attachment bolts, then put the toe and camber bolts in place and then tightened the trailing arm bolts.

Whatever I did I ended up with 0 toe and -1.8 camber. I’m at 24.5 in the rear, and 24.8 in the front.

Thanks for the response. Yes I was worried the spring plates were a different dimension from my old and that was causing the issue but maybe not. Sounds like to gain more toe I need to add camber?

[snbush67]

Originally Posted by kav

Thanks for the response. Yes I was worried the spring plates were a different dimension from my old and that was causing the issue but maybe not. Sounds like to gain more toe I need to add camber?

That’s how it worked out for me. -1.8 is the least amount of camber I could get with 0 toe. I’m sure tire height and ride height makes a difference as well.

[kav]

Originally Posted by snbush67

That’s how it worked out for me. -1.8 is the least amount of camber I could get with 0 toe. I’m sure tire height and ride height makes a difference as well.

Ok thanks. I think I'm going to raise the car slightly to help with some of the geometry and try again.

Such a pain in the ass going through this process. I was hoping to drive my car to Monterey this week for Werks Reunion / Car Week on Wednesday night but that's too much of a rush now. I'm going leave the car here, take the daily and get this alignment done right.

Cheers

-Kav.

[snbush67]

Are you using rubber bushings that came on the spring plates?

I cut the rubber bushing off and I’m using the rebel racing bushings ( pic below) and I was thinking that the reason I couldn’t get any less camber could be the flexibility of rubber bushing vs. the precision of the Rebel Racing bushings and that the weight of the car on rubber bushings allows the wheel to toe out whereas the solid bushings have no slop.

Or maybe it’s the difference with the new rubber bushings compared to worn bushings.

[Jonny042]

Same boat. Can't reduce camber to less than 1.5 or so or I can't get the toe I want.

It's a tedious process.

[kav]

Originally Posted by Jonny042

Same boat. Can't reduce camber to less than 1.5 or so or I can't get the toe I want.

It's a tedious process.

You're not wrong about that! Is your car lowered Jonny?

-Kav.

[kav]

Originally Posted by snbush67

Are you using rubber bushings that came on the spring plates?

I cut the rubber bushing off and I’m using the rebel racing bushings ( pic below) and I was thinking that the reason I couldn’t get any less camber could be the flexibility of rubber bushing vs. the precision of the Rebel Racing bushings and that the weight of the car on rubber bushings allows the wheel to toe out whereas the solid bushings have no slop.

Or maybe it’s the difference with the new rubber bushings compared to worn bushings.

Yes been looking at those. Thanks!

-Kav

[Mahler9th]

Feel free to send me a PM and I can give you my e-mail address and phone number.

If you are convinced that your measurement set up and process is robust, what I might try first is to start with the toe at max toe in by taking advantage of the slotted holes at the rear most area of the spring plates.

Then if you can still use the eccentric tool, back off the toe in to you desired number. I always run about 1 /16 in total out back. If you cannot use the tool, you may be able to use a screwdriver or something to get the number you want at your desired ride height and camber.

In these situations you might then find that you cannot install to tool and wonder how to cinch her down without it in place. That is easy-- there are a couple of threads where I show a method for this.

Easier to discuss this over the phone so feel free to send me a PM.

I live in Norcal, and I have a lot of experience with set up-- I have been doing my own for years and have helped many friends.

[Mahler9th]

If you are going to be at Werks, I can tell you in person as I will be there with my wife and a bunch of friends.

[snbush67]

Mike, I am interested in the eccentric tool you mention. Also I tried to get toe in by setting the bolt at the max toe in, there just isn’t enough adjustment left at that position to get less than 1.8 degrees of camber. I agree it’s easier to talk, I’m going to try to find your other threads.

[Mahler9th]

Not really a tool but the eccentric bolt.

It can be a pain to get only modest negative camber on a lowered car. I don't have a lot of experience with all of the permutations and combinations and I do NOT use fender height as a ride height reference since it is not repeatable enough for my application.

I do NOT use the toe eccentric to adjust toe or as a fastener. Too unreliable for my application.

Once I get the settings I want I lock them in place:




My race car has a very low ride height and I ran bias ply slicks for years. At my chosen height it was hard to get the modest camber settings I wanted (about -0.75 - 1 degree). That is of course negative camber.

An accomplished and experienced friend recommended that I modify my spring plates by moving the slot and hole. This worked perfectly.

When I switched to radial slicks about 8 years ago, I decided to splurge on some ERP spring plates, so the ones I modified are sitting on a shelf. They are listed in an advert in the for sale forums.

They allow a low ride height yet a modest range of negative camber.

[kav]

Originally Posted by Mahler9th

If you are going to be at Werks, I can tell you in person as I will be there with my wife and a bunch of friends.

Thanks so much Mike for the info and offer. I've sent you a PM.

Cheers

-Kav.

[snbush67]

Thanks for the picture Mike!

[jmz]

If you can find someone that has a trailing arm jig. (I forgot the Porsche part number but P208 or something) you could check to see if your trailing arms are bent.

I have gone through this on my 68 911. I ended up making custom spring plates. First we had to make adjustments to get a bit less Toe In. ...we made some slightly longer spring plates, moving the slots, and adjustment holes. We fixed the toe in but now I can't get any negative camber so I am going to modify them again. I never checked for bent trailing arms but it would be weird if they were both bent identically. My car did go on a celette bench so I think it is square. ...so I 'm not sure why I can't get the rear to align but it is almost there and will be correct soon.