$2670 to R&R 3.2 engine - thoughts?

[Geneman]

Thats a cool bracket T77. thanks

[Sboxin]

Another Data Point:

Our Phoenix INDIE shop does the R&R for 8 hours x $150/hr = $1200

But the engine rebuild is 70 hours . . . LOL :-))

There is a lot of price variance around the country . . . and my son and I have done
many R&R ourselves with a variety of jacks and now a Quick Jack works well too . . .

Wish you the best on your project,
Regards,
Roy T

[47silver]

Drop a motor? 4 hours. Then what? The car takes up productive lift space. The engine takes up room. Shop space is expensive. The tech then either tears it apart and replaces all parts with new or gets the “worked when i dropped it off routine”. 2700 sounds low and a good p shop cant be communists by giving everything away.

[Marc Bixen]

I'm just curious, there are a number of posts here that refer to "lift space"? Have any of you ever worked at a shop? Once the motor is out, guess what? You can "roll" the car off the lift! Wow, the lift is productive again. Do you guys think that during a 4-6-8week engine rebuild that we just leave the car on the lift. Uff Da! And 8hours in Pheonix to R&R, I need to raise my hours! Again, IF the R.O. of the O.P. is correct, and the 15 hours is ONLY for the R&R, no special fee for a "rush job", then HE GOT RIPPED OFF!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

I'm just curious, there are a number of posts here that refer to "lift space"? Have any of you ever worked at a shop? Once the motor is out, guess what? You can "roll" the car off the lift! Wow, the lift is productive again. Do you guys think that during a 4-6-8week engine rebuild that we just leave the car on the lift. Uff Da!

Synchronicity...Just in the last hour I pulled out my old snowboard to prep it for the season. And then I read this.

[stanglife]

This is one of my beefs with most specialty shops for pretty much anything these days. They think that the most they ever got paid for that one job is what they should make for every job. Essentially, they forget that you take the good with the...not as good - they think every move should be a landslide in their favor and that just creates a poor customer experience due to price inconsistencies (or consistencies! lol) between different types of jobs that typically require different skill levels. So you end up with a highly trained technician (maybe!) and the business expects 2 hour minimum at $175/hr to change some windshield wipers.... That might be extreme, but you get the idea.

[Marc Bixen]

Originally Posted by stanglife

This is one of my beefs with most specialty shops for pretty much anything these days. They think that the most they ever got paid for that one job is what they should make for every job. Essentially, they forget that you take the good with the...not as good - they think every move should be a landslide in their favor and that just creates a poor customer experience due to price inconsistencies (or consistencies! lol) between different types of jobs that typically require different skill levels. So you end up with a highly trained technician (maybe!) and the business expects 2 hour minimum at $175/hr to change some windshield wipers.... That might be extreme, but you get the idea.

It may "seem" extreme, but I once saw a repair order from a well known shop in the San Fernando valley that charged a guy, get this, on one repair order, $96.00, 1.0 hour at that time, to replace wiper blades, PLUS the price of the blades, while performing a MAJOR service in addition to other work, $7,000+ bill! Also on the same invoice "install turbo tie rod kit with reset toe". Two pages later "4 wheel alignment"
Buyer beware.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by Mehoff

For full service shops, engine work is a horrible use of a lift/bay. Sounds like they’re charging him for the 2 days business they’ll lose by having the bay occupied at close and open.

In-demand wrenches strongly prefer you just deliver them the engine.

Interesting points. I called the shop on Tuesday of last week (the day after I'd dropped it off) to see what the status was. Turns out they only have two lifts, and mine was waiting for one, scheduled for the next morning (Wednesday). They called me at 2:50 on Wednesday afternoon to tell me the tech wanted to talk to me. When I drove over, I found he had (since 8:00 am that morning, presumably including a lunch break) removed the engine, separated the transaxle, removed the clutch, pressure plate and flywheel, along with a few other items, removed all the plugs and had performed a leak-down test. So, I know for a fact it didn't take 10 hours to remove the engine.

This morning, I stopped by to check on it. I asked if, the next time the engine needed to be removed for service, they would have any problem with me pulling it myself, and bringing it over to them. He said no, but that he could "maybe adjust the hours next time, so it wouldn't cost me so much". So, apparently, there is room for negotiation. Who knew? Live and learn (but I'll still look into doing it myself).

Here are some current pictures of the engine. The tin has been powder-coated and is back on, new clutch, a few other odds & ends. Everything looks great. While the engine was out, I also had them weld in a passenger-side bracket for a 2nd strut for the whale tail (which was added by a previous owner), and this still needs to be primered and painted. After that, he can install the new engine compartment insulation pad. He said it will likely be ready next Tuesday.

[Quicksilver]

Man, it just amazes me that a shop would charge WAY more hours than it takes me to R&R the engine and trans.
(And I do it with hand tools and use a modified skateboard to roll the engine out from under the car and then back.)

I wild guess is that the shop mostly does watercooled stuff so they want to avoid working on aircooled cars.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Man, it just amazes me that a shop would charge WAY more hours than it takes me to R&R the engine and trans.
(And I do it with hand tools and use a modified skateboard to roll the engine out from under the car and then back.)

I wild guess is that the shop mostly does watercooled stuff so they want to avoid working on aircooled cars.

Although I'm not wealthy, there are a lot of people in my general area who are loaded, and it appears this shop is simply charging what the market will bear. Unfortunately for me, it is bearing quite a lot.

[GothingNC]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

The 15 hours to R&R doesn’t bother me as much as the $178 per hour! Geez!

Labor rate at the VW dealer is $180 per hour

[ahh911]

I feel behind the curve, is it 2600$ for all the stuff below?
Or, 15 hours for engine removal and installation, then all the stuff below added to the bill? I just assumed it was all included, otherwise, ridiculous. Maybe for the first 911 aircooled engine drop ever for the tech, they really should then pay you for your time , just joking, but cripes, that makes no sense.
Edit: to add some context, first time re-installing the engine, 911sc. My wife left to drive the kids to school ~9am, by 1pm the engine was in, but, I had a bent crossbar that was unknown to me and I had to fight with aligning the mounts, if the bar hadn't been screwed up, would have been in easily by 11am. Add engine oil and start, ~45min. That's roughly how I remember things..

Phil

- The two fuel hoses on the front (forward part) of the engine are being replaced (one is leaking).
- Clutch is being replaced, along with clutch helper spring that is broken, flywheel being machined.
- A major service is being performed (I received no service recs with the car but, based on other signs, it is probably due for one). This will be my baseline.
- Engine compartment insulation is being replaced (really needs it).
- Cap/rotor/wires being replaced (one corroded wire pulled out of the cap-end fitting).
- Breather hoses being replaced.
- While we're in there, engine tin is being blasted and powder-coated, and a few other odds & ends.

Obviously, the fuel hoses are critical - and they cannot be replaced with the engine in the car. Same for the clutch.

The 15 hours is for both removal and re-installation. I'm assuming that is flat/book rate. Accordi

[Swordfish II]

Originally Posted by stanglife

So you end up with a highly trained technician (maybe!) and the business expects 2 hour minimum at $175/hr to change some windshield wipers.... That might be extreme, but you get the idea.

Its not at all extreme. A dealer in Vegas with a "Classic" team wanted $75 to replace wiper blades but couldn't figure out my distributor was bad.

I bought the wipers at autozone for $15 and swapping them out is cake.

[ard]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

No Matt, That's a plain Rip-Off price. Maybe the secretary made a mistake and charged him to R&R a 991 Turbo engine, that's about right for that abortion. Probably one of those shops where the owner races Cup Cars or IMSA. That would explain the price, gotta pay for his addiction. Being a professional like yourself I hate those shops. They ruin the reputation for all of us. Like the guys that sell you $7-10k exhaust systems, make your car illegal, then they keeps your $7-10k factory exhaust and sell it on evil-bay. They ruin it for all of the "legitimate" shops. Worse than dealers. Buyer be ware!
And to Fab64, remember, ALWAYS get an estimate and question prices at that time. In California a repair shop MUST provide the client with an estimate, within 10% of the actual price, PRIOR to starting repairs.

The part about shops keeping your good parts and reselling them on evil-bay rings true for me. SF Peninsula shop now (thankfully) long out of business installed new shocks and lowering springs and a LWFW and RS clutch on my 993. The original parts were perfectly good and I had the install performed to improve the stance and "feel" of the engine. Shop didn't return the original parts to me (I was too uniformed to know I had the right to them), and then turned around and sold my "lightly used DMF and clutch" and "lightly used strut assembly" on evil-bay. And I don't think I was the only person whose parts were sold.

[Jeff Alton]

Interesteing posts on this thread make it a great read...

Figure out a what you think is fair and if your shop charges that, give them the go ahead to do the work. Your shop needs to make a profit to stay in business.

If you think they are ripping you off, go elsewhere. In SoCal you have so many choices....

But don't shop on price alone, you will be disappointed in the work.

A "highly regarded" shop likely would have more than 2 lifts, especially if charging those rates... A shop with two lifts has one tech or two at most....

Cheers