$2670 to R&R 3.2 engine - thoughts?

[Fab64]

Hi all,

I just got back into Porsche ownership after a 27-year absence. I was fully expecting service/maintenance prices to be higher, but this was still pretty shocking. I need some work done on my 1984 911 which requires the engine to be removed. The (highly-regarded) shop I'm using is billing me 15 hours (@ $178/hr) to R&R the engine. From what I've read in various forums, it's not that difficult or involved, and shouldn't take anywhere near 15 hours to accomplish - especially for an experienced mechanic. Unfortunately, I'm not currently set up to do it myself (although $2600 would certainly have gone a long way toward purchasing a lift), so I didn't really have much choice. I'm just wondering what others do in this situation? Is it possible to negotiate stuff like this with the shop, or am I completely at their mercy? Thanks for any experiences/suggestions.

Roger

[walt]

What exactly needs to be done? Any specifics.

[jess p]

I’ve removed my 911 engine in 3 hours and I don’t have a fancy lift. Sounds high. Is that price just to remove the engine? If so that’s an indication of what they will bill you for other work. Do it yourself.

[Swordfish II]

At least for my 1976 911, I haven't gotten out of a decent shop for anything less than $3000 when there is significant work to be done (megasquirt + a few other things was $6,000). Crank triggered ignition is going to be about $4,000. Rebuild 3 times was huge money. First shop screwed it up, second shop fixed it, 3rd shop was for a few other things.

Luckily for me, my engine has been in and out of the car so many times most maintenance type stuff has been accomplished in conjunction with other work.

Just an FYI an oil change typically is $500 or more depending on your area.

[john walker's workshop]

15 hours just for the R&R, and then extra time to do whatever else? What else is getting done?

[rumlyne]

Post the definition of R & R

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by walt

What exactly needs to be done? Any specifics.

- The two fuel hoses on the front (forward part) of the engine are being replaced (one is leaking).
- Clutch is being replaced, along with clutch helper spring that is broken, flywheel being machined.
- A major service is being performed (I received no service recs with the car but, based on other signs, it is probably due for one). This will be my baseline.
- Engine compartment insulation is being replaced (really needs it).
- Cap/rotor/wires being replaced (one corroded wire pulled out of the cap-end fitting).
- Breather hoses being replaced.
- While we're in there, engine tin is being blasted and powder-coated, and a few other odds & ends.

Obviously, the fuel hoses are critical - and they cannot be replaced with the engine in the car. Same for the clutch.

The 15 hours is for both removal and re-installation. I'm assuming that is flat/book rate. According to Wayne Dempsey (in his "101 Projects for your Porsche 911" book), it takes 10 hours to remove. However, people (in this forum and others) say it can be done much faster.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Fab64

- The two fuel hoses on the front (forward part) of the engine are being replaced (one is leaking).
- Clutch is being replaced, along with clutch helper spring that is broken, flywheel being machined.
- A major service is being performed (I received no service recs with the car but, based on other signs, it is probably due for one). This will be my baseline.
- Engine compartment insulation is being replaced (really needs it).
- Cap/rotor/wires being replaced (one corroded wire pulled out of the cap-end fitting).
- Breather hoses being replaced.
- While we're in there, engine tin is being blasted and powder-coated, and a few other odds & ends.

Obviously, the fuel hoses are critical - and they cannot be replaced with the engine in the car. Same for the clutch.

The 15 hours is for both removal and re-installation. I'm assuming that is flat/book rate. According to Wayne Dempsey (in his "101 Projects for your Porsche 911" book), it takes 10 hours to remove. However, people (in this forum and others) say it can be done much faster.

If all the parts and other work you have listed above are part of that $2670, that price is good, if it is just an engine out and back in, it seems very high.

[john walker's workshop]

8 hrs is probably more normal for a shop, but what can you do? I know if I started at 8am, it would be back in way before 4pm, counting lunch break.

[john walker's workshop]

Originally Posted by rumlyne

Post the definition of R & R

Remove and replace.

[Marc Bixen]

R&R refers to Remove & Re-install.
At Red Line we charge 6.5 hours to R&R an 84 3.2 motor that is stock with A/C. Any repairs outside of that are additional. The R&R includes an oil and filter change and reseting the fuel mixture and idle. Which must be done any time the motor is removed. I hope the 15 hours included additional repairs.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

R&R refers to Remove & Re-install.
At Red Line we charge 6.5 hours to R&R an 84 3.2 motor that is stock with A/C. Any repairs outside of that are additional. The R&R includes an oil and filter change and reseting the fuel mixture and idle. Which must be done any time the motor is removed. I hope the 15 hours included additional repairs.

No, strictly engine R&R. Other repairs were on top of that.

[boyt911sc]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

8 hrs is probably more normal for a shop, but what can you do? I know if I started at 8am, it would be back in way before 4pm, counting lunch break.

John,

You don’t spend too much time on your cell phone and log on @ Pelicanparts Technical Forum very briefly. That’s the reason you could do the engine removal and re-installation in a day’s work. A lot of people can’t survive several hours without a cell phone near by. I am old and slow, give me 10 hours to get the motor back because I need my 2-hour seista.

Tony

[ahh911]

I would not mind paying the extra $ if I was assured a good result. Problem is, you can't buy your way out of screw ups these days, meaning, spending the extra money, does it guarantee a high level of workmanship, or will it be like another poster has recently shown, paid a premium and forgot to add the oil?, is the latest example. boy, I wouldn't have been nearly as calm.
Phil

[mepstein]

When I worked at the Porsche shop, the guys there could drop an engine in the lift table in 45 minutes. Sounds unbelievable but I watched them do it. Install took about 2-2.5 hours. It sounds high to me but the time to ask is before the work, not after.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by ahh911

I would not mind paying the extra $ if I was assured a good result. Problem is, you can't buy your way out of screw ups these days, meaning, spending the extra money, does it guarantee a high level of workmanship, or will it be like another poster has recently shown, paid a premium and forgot to add the oil?, is the latest example. boy, I wouldn't have been nearly as calm.
Phil

As I said, this shop is very highly regarded; they're very busy, they do a lot of race work, and have very good word-of-mouth - so I'm expecting the work to be done well. I know quite a lot about cars, and I do get a good feeling from talking to the 40+ year experienced mechanic who is doing the work - no BS detected. However, I also feel that charging 15 hours for this task is way overpriced. I hate being taken advantage of, so I am planning to purchase a 2-post lift (for about what they would charge for 20 hours of labor), so I can drop the engine myself the next time it's needed. It will also make other tasks much easier.

Thanks to all for your input.

[Matt Monson]

That’s the SoCal price.

[ahh911]

"so I am planning to purchase a 2-post lift (for about what they would charge for 20 hours of labor), so I can drop the engine myself the next time it's needed. It will also make other tasks much easier."

Don't need a two lift post to remove the engine, it might be easier without. I have 3 jacks, one is extended arm, that one goes on the oil drain plate, another old cheap one holds up the transmission, the third is used to jack the car up from side to side as the engine stays in position and the back of the car lifts up, I work the two jacks on the tran and engine and it's so stupidly easy looking back, and very secure. The engine never gains any height and really had no tendancy to roll over, for me, it was really easy.

Phil

[Marc Bixen]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

That’s the SoCal price.

No Matt, That's a plain Rip-Off price. Maybe the secretary made a mistake and charged him to R&R a 991 Turbo engine, that's about right for that abortion. Probably one of those shops where the owner races Cup Cars or IMSA. That would explain the price, gotta pay for his addiction. Being a professional like yourself I hate those shops. They ruin the reputation for all of us. Like the guys that sell you $7-10k exhaust systems, make your car illegal, then they keeps your $7-10k factory exhaust and sell it on evil-bay. They ruin it for all of the "legitimate" shops. Worse than dealers. Buyer be ware!
And to Fab64, remember, ALWAYS get an estimate and question prices at that time. In California a repair shop MUST provide the client with an estimate, within 10% of the actual price, PRIOR to starting repairs.

[Mehoff]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

No Matt, That's a plain Rip-Off price. Maybe the secretary made a mistake and charged him to R&R a 991 Turbo engine, that's about right for that abortion. Probably one of those shops where the owner races Cup Cars or IMSA. That would explain the price, gotta pay for his addiction. Being a professional like yourself I hate those shops. They ruin the reputation for all of us. Like the guys that sell you $7-10k exhaust systems, make your car illegal, then they keeps your $7-10k factory exhaust and sell it on evil-bay. They ruin it for all of the "legitimate" shops. Worse than dealers. Buyer be ware!
And to Fab64, remember, ALWAYS get an estimate and question prices at that time. In California a repair shop MUST provide the client with an estimate, within 10% of the actual price, PRIOR to starting repairs.

I think this is unfairly harsh. Yes, 15 hours is insane for R&R but I doubt it’s insidious. If it is one of the well known club racing shops in or around LA, those guys live and die by reputation and wouldn’t risk gouging. My guess is they don’t want the business and have quoted a “this makes it worthwhile” figure. This has become common in Los Angeles, though shops are typically upfront about it. I have a buddy that’s trying to get an intermix issue checked out on his 996 (only reputable shops) and was told 6 months or bill + x$.

For full service shops, engine work is a horrible use of a lift/bay. Sounds like they’re charging him for the 2 days business they’ll lose by having the bay occupied at close and open.

In-demand wrenches strongly prefer you just deliver them the engine.