$2670 to R&R 3.2 engine - thoughts?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Marc Bixen

No Matt, That's a plain Rip-Off price. Maybe the secretary made a mistake and charged him to R&R a 991 Turbo engine, that's about right for that abortion. Probably one of those shops where the owner races Cup Cars or IMSA. That would explain the price, gotta pay for his addiction. Being a professional like yourself I hate those shops. They ruin the reputation for all of us. Like the guys that sell you $7-10k exhaust systems, make your car illegal, then they keeps your $7-10k factory exhaust and sell it on evil-bay. They ruin it for all of the "legitimate" shops. Worse than dealers. Buyer be ware!
And to Fab64, remember, ALWAYS get an estimate and question prices at that time. In California a repair shop MUST provide the client with an estimate, within 10% of the actual price, PRIOR to starting repairs.

Running a business the way you do these days is becoming a rare thing. The hobby has gotten so popular that in the greater SoCal counties one can charge silly money and still have a couple weeks’ wait.

[rattlsnak]

The 15 hours to R&R doesn’t bother me as much as the $178 per hour! Geez!

[Showdown]

Come to Chicago and easily see $200 an hour.

Bonkers.

On the plus side, it's great fuel to learn how to do your own maintenance...

[77Targa0912]

Once the car is on a lift the engine and trans can be dropped in 45 minutes.

[917_Langheck]

Originally Posted by Mehoff

If it is one of the well known club racing shops in or around LA, those guys live and die by reputation and wouldn’t risk gouging. My guess is they don’t want the business and have quoted a “this makes it worthwhile” figure.

These two sentences do not square with one another. On one hand shops wouldn't risk getting caught gouging for fear of ruined reputation (like Esposito's that kept bringing in work despite wide knowledge of their sham?), and on the other they gouge because they don't want the work. What?

I too have thrown out mega bids to RFPs not wanting the job, but that was so the agency didn't boot us off the go-to list when the next contract came up.

I do agree with the latter part of the statement as the likely scenario, but would never presume folks in LA, or anywhere else, wouldnt gouge because they have a reputation to uphold. Ha! The world hasn't changed that much.

[Mehoff]

Originally Posted by 917_Langheck

These two sentences do not square with one another. On one hand shops wouldn't risk getting caught gouging for fear of ruined reputation (like Esposito's that kept bringing in work despite wide knowledge of their sham?), and on the other they gouge because they don't want the work. What?

I too have thrown out mega bids to RFPs not wanting the job, but that was so the agency didn't boot us off the go-to list when the next contract came up.

I do agree with the latter part of the statement as the likely scenario, but would never presume folks in LA, or anywhere else, wouldnt gouge because they have a reputation to uphold. Ha! The world hasn't changed that much.

That’s why I qualified it by saying they are usually up front about the overcharge, which then becomes essentially a skip the line fee. If not it could be a) they’re not actually a reputable shop, b) a miscommunication or c) a customer they simply don’t give a ***** about.

The race shops live and die by the club racers. Not unheard of to have different pricing for know and unknown customers. IMHO that is bad business, but the Porsche world has become pretty terrible the past 8 years.


To end on a more positive note, one of the most honest in the biz is Anze. No new work in Jan period because his primary customers [I]might[I] need him at short notice. Otherwise is upfront, crazy quick and has never missed an estimate for me.

[jmd88]

Just adding my .02
When I bought my car, I worked with a “famous LA shop” that had 1 job to do. Prep the car for a drive to the PNW after an inspection and ppi. The ppi had stages of acceptance criteria before I would buy the car, take possession and ultimately drive it north from LA.

“Leak down.” If that passes, “ new plugs and wires distributor, valve adjust and anything critical to make the drive including fluid flush, pads, and anything else you see that’s an easy service”… “no problem…”

6k later and they sent me on my way with a split plug boot (billed for new wires but did not swapped), misfiring half way into the trip. Failed headlight. Turn signal flasher was bad. Windshield wiper fluid failure (didn’t tell me it didn’t work). And more. No ppi write up… etc.

They did replaced a cv boot and my slave cylinder and then took 5k of my money with nothing to show for it.

It took me getting home (through all the issues to realize all the **** they DIDNT do).

That’s what I get for being excited about my dream car.

Proper Porsche service will cost 175-195 per hour. Just make sure you’ve got the list, they see the list, the list is verified and they show/give you the “old parts”


I lost 5k in the process…

But I made it home (barely) in my dream car…

Glad I can twist my own wrenches. And when it’s beyond my reach, I’ll pay 185 per hour all day long, as ping as they are legit.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

John,

You don’t spend too much time on your cell phone and log on @ Pelicanparts Technical Forum very briefly. That’s the reason you could do the engine removal and re-installation in a day’s work. A lot of people can’t survive several hours without a cell phone near by. I am old and slow, give me 10 hours to get the motor back because I need my 2-hour seista.

Tony

tony, that includes his pelican time

i have a 930.
it does not take me very long to get it out by myself with no lift.
that includes removing the rear bumper (which i have set up to remove quickly)
i made an "adapter" that "bolts" the engine to my transmission jack.

[Geneman]

T77. can you post a picture of this adaptor? love this idea. ( sorry for thread hijack.. btw. less than 2 hrs for me to drop motor plus trans onto a cart from a two post lift in my garage or in the paddock .... bumfock simple.)

[yelcab1]

The people who say "I can drop that engine in 2 hours so R&R should only be 4hrs" don't own a shop. Book-rates are also for newer cars and don't always apply for older cars when a number of things will go sideways.

15 hours for R&R is probably what it actually took their green mechanic to drop that engine, deal with the few things that did not go as planned, and put it all back. $175 hourly rate is the fair rate for an indy in LA area.

They should have given an estimate for a complex job like that and stick to it. The time of estimate is also when you question the R&R rate, not after.

By the way, replacing any of the fuel lines at the front of engine compartment is totally doable with the engine in, but one of the intake manifold has to come out. And I have spent hours cleaning up the intake manifold gaskets that were welded on to the heads by sheer old age. If there is any other reason to drop the engine at all, do that.

[Mehoff]

Originally Posted by yelcab1

15 hours for R&R is probably what it actually took their green mechanic to drop that engine, deal with the few things that did not go as planned, and put it all back. $175 hourly rate is the fair rate for an indy in LA area.

This is horse%^&t. You pay a mechanic the high rate for their experience, not to train their apprentice on your dime.

And 4 hours is absolutely correct for a garage job with a lift and engine dolly (not separating engine/trans). To be fair, first time took me well over 20 hours.

[jmd88]

Originally Posted by T77911S

tony, that includes his pelican time

i have a 930.
it does not take me very long to get it out by myself with no lift.
that includes removing the rear bumper (which i have set up to remove quickly)
i made an "adapter" that "bolts" the engine to my transmission jack.

Any info on those mods, photos or a thread? Bought to pull my motor and would love the insight.

[T77911S]

i love the tranny jack because it rolls in any direction. it tilts to the side and front and back. makes it so much easier putting it back in.
the motor still moves on the jack but its not going to fall off.
i had the motor chained to my hoist and rocked around pretty good.
the 930 motor is bigger, bulkier and more "tail" heavy than a 911 engine so i needed more security when doing this by myself. finding the "balance point" is more consistent this way.
as you can see its just bolted to the CV flanges on both sides.
im sure someone out there can improve it but it works for me.
i would really like a better "platform" that the motor actually sits on on the jack.

i bought a tranny jack that is too big. part of why i have to take off the bumper.
but what i do now is when its time to roll it out i drop the nose pf the car almost to the floor with a low profile jack and that sticks the A$$ up in the air even higher. then i can roll it out.

[T77911S]

you can see i had a piece of wood that i cut to for the motor to kind of sit on.
i need to improve that

if you want to do this, get the motor on the jack and balanced then figure up the angles and length for the bracket.

i can probably have my motor out by myself in i want to say 2 hours, depending on if i remove the axles completely or not.
i could take it out of my 914-6 in less than an hour.

the reason the motor can still move is because of the "play" in those brackets that are bolted to the tranny jack.
i could probably make a bracket that eliminates that "sloppy" bracket that came with the jack.

[gtc]

Do we get to guess what shop it was?

[3rd_gear_Ted]

Originally Posted by Fab64

- The two fuel hoses on the front (forward part) of the engine are being replaced (one is leaking).
- Clutch is being replaced, along with clutch helper spring that is broken, flywheel being machined.
- A major service is being performed (I received no service recs with the car but, based on other signs, it is probably due for one). This will be my baseline.
- Engine compartment insulation is being replaced (really needs it).
- Cap/rotor/wires being replaced (one corroded wire pulled out of the cap-end fitting).
- Breather hoses being replaced.
- While we're in there, engine tin is being blasted and powder-coated, and a few other odds & ends.

Obviously, the fuel hoses are critical - and they cannot be replaced with the engine in the car. Same for the clutch.

The 15 hours is for both removal and re-installation. I'm assuming that is flat/book rate. According to Wayne Dempsey (in his "101 Projects for your Porsche 911" book), it takes 10 hours to remove. However, people (in this forum and others) say it can be done much faster.

Paying $178 an hour to sandblast and powder coat tin?

WHY was this in the scope of work?

There are better resources to do that work for much less in SoCal.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by gtc

Do we get to guess what shop it was?

No, I was being purposely vague because I'm not trying to trash anyone. The purpose of my post was to see what others thought of this price, plus to see if anyone had tried to negotiate something like this.

[jac1976]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Paying $178 an hour to sandblast and powder coat tin?

WHY was this in the scope of work?

There are better resources to do that work for much less in SoCal.

I believe that was just for the R&R. 15h at $178/h is $2670.

[Fab64]

Originally Posted by 3rd_gear_Ted

Paying $178 an hour to sandblast and powder coat tin?

WHY was this in the scope of work?

There are better resources to do that work for much less in SoCal.

No, the tin is being sent to an outside shop for this work. The only shop labor will be to remove and re-install the tin. It's being done now because it's not possible to remove it with the engine in the car.

[yelcab1]

Originally Posted by Mehoff

This is horse%^&t. ... To be fair, first time took me well over 20 hours.

So you disagreed, and then agreed?