Autofrost R12 Replacement

88911coupe · 06-11-2003, 10:39 AM

Ok, I have been scouring the EPA website and came across an approved R12 replacement that, according to www.autofrost.com, is a drop in replacement for R12 and actually cools a little bit BETTER than R12.
Could the knowledgeable people on this site chime in here with the facts...this seems too good to be true. Will my a/c work for a week then turn to dust like the pilot's mask in The Andromeda Strain?
Thanks!

scottb · 06-11-2003, 12:06 PM

The website says autofrost is not compatible with PAG oil. Is that the standard oil used in R-12 a/c systems? If so, how does one remove it and what do you replace it with?

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

I've got a case of Duracool (www.duracoolusa.com) that I'm hoping to try. It is supposed to be compatible with R12 systems.

88911coupe · 06-11-2003, 12:26 PM

From what I can tell Duracool is, technically, not approved by the EPA. Apparently it's not been presented and/or the fact that it is flammable may mean that it won't ever be presented. I have also heard it can be tough on some seals, supposedly the older ones in particular. I think Ken (CEO) noticed this on some cars at Loudens but hopefully he'll see this thread and correct me if it wasn't Duracool he was referring to. I was thinking about using that myself but I was wanting to find something that would not raise any eyebrows at a service center.
Not sure about the oil, it is touted as a "drop in" replacement which would seem to indicate the oils for both are compatible. I'll keep reading. The site does say the "recommended" method is to evacuate the old refrigerant first but I think that's more for EPA compliance, someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Later

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

interesting...I did read the MSDS and got a bit nervous. Methylethylmethane, 2-methylpropane, and diethylmethane. In other words, low moelcular weight hydrocarbons....FIRE! (down Beavis...)

Maybe just an R12 fill for this summer then redo the system over the winter...

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

Lots of discussion on this: Click here.

When I get around to the A/C, I am planning on trying Duracool, based in part on This thread.

Tom

axl911 · axl911's Garage

When you Duracool or any other R-12 compatible into your R-12 system, how will your mechanic/shop treat your car? One of the shop I talked to won't go near an AC system that has been contaminated or mixed. And I can see why. To do work, ie. compressor replacement. They need to evacuate and store the refigerant while they work on your car. Mixing refigerant (Duracool or R134, etc) into your system will contaminte the shop's evacuation system.

Something to consider.

---
anthony

88911coupe · 06-11-2003, 02:58 PM

Just got done reading their FAQ page and the oil used in R12 systems is totally compatible with Autofrost, unless of course the original oil has been contaminated somehow. However, they say it should not be used with PAG oil but alkybenzyne based oil is ok. Also, it's recommended that neoprene seals are used and older non barrier hoses should be replaced.
If I go this route I'll just let the shop have the R12 remaining in my system.
FYI, Autofrost is a combination of R22 (55%), R142b(41%), and R600a (4%). R600a is flammable but in such low amounts it's not an issue.

turbo6bar · 06-11-2003, 06:53 PM

I have not used the Autofrost product. I converted a '95 Mercedes over to Enviro-Safe (propane/butane mix) recently. At the time I did the work, the temps were in the low 80s, and vent temps with stationary vehicle were in the low 40s. The reason I did the conversion was due to a leak in the system that was really slow. I think it was in the evaporator. Anyway, I used their stop leak product for leaks in metal, and low and behold the stuff works. Call me lazy, but replacing the evaporator requires dash removal(a tough 1-2 day job).

My dad's '87 Benz recently started leaking R-12 from a hose fitting. The hose is no longer available from MB, as it has been superceded with another hose. Replacement would be really tough, so I'm just going to try the Stop Leak again, and go with the Enviro-Safe. This car, with R-12 would form ice on your knuckles (vents blowing on your hands), so I will be able to see just how good this propane/butane mix really is.

I feel the arguments against the propane/butane mixes are just a crock brought by the EPA and Dupont to further the Freon monopoly. The propane/butane products are used around the world extensively with virtually NO problems. If you are considering using the replacements, just bite the bullet and do the work yourself. Buy the equipment (hoses and vacuum pump) and learn the basics. If something goes wrong, you have no one else to blame.

Good luck,
Jurgen

88911coupe · 06-11-2003, 07:06 PM

I just did a price comparison and Autofrost is about 1/3 the price of R12. Still requires a cert (609?) but apparently that's extremely easy to get and it can be done online in a few minutes.

david914 · 06-11-2003, 07:24 PM

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know what kind of vacuum pump can be used on an A/C system and where to purchase one?

88911coupe · 06-11-2003, 08:02 PM

I think these guys sell them...
http://www.acsource.com/
just did a search and came across that site.

bob hodges · 06-12-2003, 04:05 AM

I have to tell my story. I serviced my system last year with Freeze 12. with excellent luck. I changed over to a Sanden compressor and replaced the dryer and did a lot of thinking about the hoses and decided to leave the old hoses alone and serviced the system up with R-134. I live in Phoenix and the day I got the system all back together with the R-134 installed, the temp in Phoenix was 105. The discharge air into the car was 55 and I have to tell you that feels good and I am happy with the results. At this point I am not convenced that the OEM hoses are the bad boys that all will say about them. One thing is for sure if I have to service the system each year it will be chep and quick.

turbo6bar · 06-12-2003, 05:07 AM

David, check Ebay for vacuum pumps. There are dozens for sale. Some of the non-dedicated pumps are only going to pull 15-20 inches of mercury vacuum. You really need one that will do better, especially if you are using R-12, R-134, or any of the true freons. A good vacuum pump will go to 27 inches or better.

Jurgen

RickM · RickM's Garage

Turbo6Bar,

Can't you have the hose rebuilt by a local shop. I think this is a common practice.

1fastredsc · 06-12-2003, 08:17 AM

I had some gentleman tell me about that stuff and hadn't heard of it until then. He was saying that it works awesome, better than r12. As a matter of fact, i don't remember what car he said he had, but the blower vent for the ac was in the back facing the front. And because of the hella strong NM sun here, he said his ride home has his face sweating while the back of his head is frozen.