What exactly constitutes an R Gruppe Car?

[hawaiianvw67]

Aloha,

Okay, I know that R Gruppe cars are early 911's, late 60's and early 70's, right? Well, I was wondering what exactly makes a regular 911 into an "R Gruppe" car.

Is there a list of usual suspects when it comes to engine mods, suspension tweaking, body cosmetics, etc. ? Just wondering. Coming from the VW world, when someone says, "I got a Cal-Look Bug" or "I have a Resto-Custom Ghia" there's a list of things in my head I know that constitute the "typical" Cal-Look or Resto-Custom VW.

So...when someone says, "I drive an R Gruppe 911" what comes to mind?

[Dantilla]

Modified to your personal tastes. No rules, other than to enjoy the cars. No extra points for originality.

The cars should have an attitude- not the people.

[cegerer]

www.rgruppe.org

[hawaiianvw67]

The cars should have an attitude- not the people.

Amen to that.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[Jack Olsen]

I can't speak for the group, but my own take on it is this: it's mostly pre-74 911's, with an emphasis on sports-purpose performance mods, most of which are period correct. Q-tip cleaned concours winners are less valued than rough-and-tumble racers.

Now, having said that, the group also includes bone stock early cars, a few post-73 cars, a few non-911's, and plenty of beautiful 911's with Q-tip levels of cleanliness. There are a number of rare, original cars in the group, and a lot of 'clones,' of famous models of 911's. There are also a handful of cars with not-remotely-period-correct modifications, like my 3.6-liter 72.

[Randy W]

I agree with everyone - it is all in the attitude of the car. The parts and pieces need to fit together so that the car just looks "right". This is difficult to put into words as it is a visual (and sometimes auditory) thing often tied to what the factory did for its "sports purpose" 911s of that period. If you drive the car you will find it is also a unique tactile experience, as compared to a stock early 911. The cars most often associated with "R Gruppe" have a stance and "look" that is purposeful yet refined. Most often this is accomplished with lowering and attention to detail in regards to alignment and finish of everything from wheels to paint. This does not mean that a lacquer peeling '72S cannot have this look - it just means it may need to compensate in other ways - maybe with a vintage Recaro race bucket or a Prototipo/914-6 GT steering wheel . The point is that when you look at it and drive it, it feels like it's an extension of you and your personality, and just maybe it will take you back for a moment to simpler times...

[hawaiianvw67]

Aloha,

I checked out the R Gruppe.org website and saw the gallery of the cars at Portland's historic races. Those are all the cars I grew up watching and wanting to own. I like the look of the long hood and the no-frills appearance that some of the cars have. By no-frills, I mean no gaping air ducts, one foot wide fenders and no giant spoilers hanging of the rear. Don't get me wrong, I like the later cars that have that look, but the earlier cars seem to be more "raw" and Spartan.

The point is that when look at it and drive it, it feels like it is an extension of you and your personality, and just maybe it will take you back for a moment to simpler times...

This quote hits the nail on the head for what I'm looking for in a Porsche.

Are most if not all R Gruppe cars carburated? I loved the sounds of 48 IDAs on my Bug...can a 911 match that? Also, Jack you mentioned your 911 is punched-out to 3.6L (!) and if I'm not mistaken, '72's were 2.2L stock, correct? Well...how much case-cutting and boring did that require? Hopefully the longevity and reliability of the Porsche engine is far superior to its VW kin. I'm sick of only being able to go 50mph on the highway for fear of overheating (I know that has a lot to do with gearing, but you know what I mean if you've had a hot rod Bug).

BTW, sorry for asking all of these stupid subjective questions...its just that there doesn't seem to be a large Porsche community here in the islands. If there was...I'd go bother them.

Oh yeah...is there a "Porsche for idiots" type book out there? I'd like to do some reading before asking more bone-head questions.

mahalo nui loa,
Joel

[Zeke]

Joel, let me tackle a couple of your questions. Carbs? Yes, and mechanical fuel injection (MFI) which both have that "sound." Six pulses instead of four is true music.

Jack's engine is a transplant from a much later year. It's not bored out or stroked, in fact, he says it's stock.

Books too. Bruce Anderson's books on 911's have the background and the mods that you can do, year by year. You can get one of the books right here at Pelican Parts. Use the parts search at the top of any of these pages.

[speeder]

Joel, Jack can provide you w/ some more details on his car, but the motor is transplanted from an early '90s 911, it is 3.6 liters in stock form, and his (motor) is basically stock. This swap, (newer, big motor in early light-weight car), is a fairly popular one in the hotrod 911 world. You do not get the peaky, screaming performance of the early high-output motors, but in trade you get massive torque/drivability and "set-it-and-forget-it" motor maintenence.

Also, his car does have "foot wide fenders and spoilers hanging off the rear", but it is still pretty period correct, IMO, the period being the very early '70s when the RSR was introduced. Most importantly, most all of the cars in that club have been made into exactly what the individual owner's idea is of the ideal 911. That's the easiest explanation I can come up with, for reading material I would recommend this site, maybe check out the "EarlySregistry" site, and read Bruce Anderson's "911 Performance Handbook" for a basic hotrod 911 text. Hopefully others will offer reading suggestions. Welcome!

EDIT: Zeke beat me to it, great minds think (and type) alike.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Randy W
j The point is that when you look at it and drive it, it feels like it's an extension of you and your personality, and just maybe it will take you back for a moment to simpler times...

My car is not a classic "R Gruppe" machine, but it fits this criteria. My car is a time machine...

[Scott Clarke]

Joel-
1.Check out Paul Frere's "Porsche 911 Story." It is the best written, most comprehensive, and most error-free book about 911s. It does a great job of explaining the general evolution of the car, and explains the reasoning behind the changes.

2. MFI sounds GREAT!

3. '72s and '73s had 2.4 mtors.

4. Yes, 911 motors last longer than VW motors. SC motors have been known to go for 400,000 miles!

-Scott

[Randy Webb]

From Follows Function -- and the function is fast touring on the roads.

I'd compare the cars to a sports touring bicycle.

[rst73]

Joel,

Since you are into VWs now, you might find it insteresting that some of us R Gruppe members started out racing VWs. Some of the members as myself were in Der Kleiner Panzers VW Club. A few very recently and some like myself, waaaaay back in the 70's.
The R Gruppe look is what the DKP car was to the Cal Look VW. I had a Karman Ghia, lowered, 4 wheel Porsche disc brakes, Fuchs alloy wheels, 48's, big valve Gene Berg heads, 90.5 p&c, 78mm crank and ran mid 13's at the old Orange County Raceway.
The R Gruppe is very much what DKP was like with a great group of people, sharing knowledge, helping one another, and having a fantastic time any time we get together.
Hot Rod VW's got me started and it was a natural progression to Hot Rod Porsches. It's much more expensive, but it's that much more FUN.

All the Best!

Roger Grago
R Gruppe #27
Past President Der Kleiner Panzers VW Club 1976-77
73 RS-T
70 2.4 MFI VW Bus
Both with attitude!

[hawaiianvw67]

Aloha,

Wow...thanks for all the great replies. I can't wait to get my hands on a 911 now!

Just out of curiosity...do any of you guys help newbies search out quality cars when they are ready to buy? FYI, I should be moving to the Monterey, CA area in late 2004, early 2005, yeah I know its a long-way off but it gives me time to save $$.

Well...I'm off to search Pelican's library.

aloha,
Joel

[nostatic]

Originally posted by rst73

The R Gruppe look is what the DKP car was to the Cal Look VW.

egad, I have to part company on that point. I always hated the "Cal Look VW". I like mine either stock or baja.

But, different strokes...

[hawaiianvw67]

Hey Roger,

Right on man. I know exactly what you mean.

Unfortunately, I just sold my '67 Bug. 2110cc, 42x37.5mm valves, 9.0:1 CR, full race port and polish, 298 cam, all solid Scat through-and-through fed by 48IDAs on Scat Traks. Exited through a merged 1 3/4" ceramic header on out through a 2 1/4" Magnaflow muffler.

I'd like to do the equivalent with a Porsche some day.

Anyway, back to the book search. People post on here a lot!

aloha,
Joel

PS - Nostatic, my Bug didn't have the Cal-Look, it was a sleeper. Pretty much stock (165R15 out back) but it was slammed.

[red-beard]

Are 356's considered for membership?

[Schrup]

****[QUOTE]no giant spoilers hanging of the rear***** Well my spoiler was put on by the factory. While I do have an appreciation for pimped out long hoods, I have at least as much admiration for a well preserved or correctly restored example of what the factory created.Therefore I am going for that "Q-tip" thing. As much as I hate to, I have to admit that is a tight website, we have some catchin up to do on that front. Thanks for the intellegence, I now have to report back to my commander.

[Jack Olsen]

Yes, I put a later motor in an earlier car, and flared the body to match the 1973 2.8 RSR race cars. It's a less elegant look than most R Gruppe cars, but it also has more 'attitude' than the 911 I owned before it.

Click on this thumbnail to see a thread with pictures of it.



There is no one quintessential R Gruppe car (although Kurt Zimmerman's might come closest), but here are links to pictures of many of the cars themselves.

Here are links to pictures of the last two years' R Gruppe meetings in Cambria.

Cambria 2001

Cambria 2002

And finally, here are two links to old pictures of my first 911, which I crashed, but still miss very much. It was more 'R Gruppe,' in its own way, than the new one is.

Link One

Link Two

[911pcars]

I've got a few RGruppe pics on my website taken from the first couple of NorthSouth meetings. You can get an idea of the range of cars described in the above posts.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars