Stereo Optimization: Tips?

[AFB24911S]

Pelican Parts Brain Trust,

I just put an amp in my 1977 911S with its original Blaupunkt radio, and the sound improvement was good but not great. I only have the two original speakers in the doors, and I'm wondering what the best ways to continue to get better audio sound might be.

Should I upgrade the radio to a newer unit, like the Blaupunkt SQR 46 Bremen or the Porsche Classic unit?

Or, should I add speakers to the rear shelf? Maybe a subwoofer? An equalizer? What is my best bet to improve sound quality?

Thank you in advance!

[ant7]

Best bang for buck in my opinion for the 911 would be to first upgrade the speakers in the doors if they are original, or been in there a long time, next,,, fit a pair of rear speakers to the shelf, but either buy, or make some angled enclosures for them, don't just rely on sinking them into the shelf, another reason people don't get decent sound in cars is because they don't take particular notice of the correct left and right phasing of the speaker wires, if the phase is out, then you will get a rather odd sound, with very limited if any bass response, hope this helps.
Ant.

Originally Posted by AFB24911S

Pelican Parts Brain Trust,

I just put an amp in my 1977 911S with its original Blaupunkt radio, and the sound improvement was good but not great. I only have the two original speakers in the doors, and I'm wondering what the best ways to continue to get better audio sound might be.

Should I upgrade the radio to a newer unit, like the Blaupunkt SQR 46 Bremen or the Porsche Classic unit?

Or, should I add speakers to the rear shelf? Maybe a subwoofer? An equalizer? What is my best bet to improve sound quality?

Thank you in advance!

[Otter74]

@ant7 Could you elaborate on your comment re: phasing? This is new to me so I’m curious.

[rwest]

Hi,

My recommendations would be first to upgrade the front door speakers, maybe even consider a separate woofer and tweeter set. Next, I would add a subwoofer to get a fuller sound.

You can do this in so many ways and cost/quality levels. Good sound is pretty easy to get out of name brand receivers and amps and reasonable costs. Speakers are where the “rubber hits the road”, so get good ones.

I would do rear speakers last and only if I had extra money above and beyond getting real good quality stuff for the rest of the system. Sound from the rear is just used for fill, you don’t sit facing the rear in a concert hall!

Rutager

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Otter74

@ant7 Could you elaborate on your comment re: phasing? This is new to me so I’m curious.

Phasing is basically having the polarities correct on all the speakers + & - if you will. A speaker will play music just fine no matter which way you wire them, but if you wire one speaker wrong, it will be out of phase with the other and some frequencies can cancel each other out making the volume and quality lower.

[Dpmulvan]

Better audio sound is pretty vague. What’s the issue with your current set up?

[ant7]

If you get the speaker connections right, use decent speakers in the doors, and a decent pair of rear speakers, [as I described earlier] then in my opinion, a sub is just the icing on the cake, head units which have between 25 and 45 watt per channel, should be ample for a decent sound in a relatively small space like the 911.
Ant.

Originally Posted by rwest

Phasing is basically having the polarities correct on all the speakers + & - if you will. A speaker will play music just fine no matter which way you wire them, but if you wire one speaker wrong, it will be out of phase with the other and some frequencies can cancel each other out making the volume and quality lower.

[EC900]

Not sure what wattage ratings are on the original radio (20w?) or door speakers (prob 10-20w range 4 ohm?) but your new amp increased output that OEM speakers could manage - for any optimum headbanger quality sound.

Yes, 48yr old speakers cones are not up to snuff anymore, likely the paper is too weak or broken and brittle. Upgrade needed. Dont replace w/o knowing speaker depth and fitment. Modern speakers will work wonders as will a modern radio with Bluetooth.
Also true, speaker wires play a role in quality if +/- are on connected correctly and gauged accordingly.

When I repaired my ‘77 door cards and original speaker grilles and found the speakers (2) were Pioneers to mate with the existing Pioneer stereo. That’s important - a matched system, but a hacked job.
One thing that helped improve and get better sound (on 2 speaker system) was replacing the missing speaker baffles (rain guards) and the plastic sheeting…if yours are missing. These direct sound outward and not into the hollow door cavity.
I have replaced flashy blue lit Pioneer a more mundane appearing Continental 7412 perfect for my needs, keeping just 2 door speakers older 50w 2 way pioneers.

Word of caution … if you’re not aware and going
to look inside the doors…don’t try to pull off the original speaker grilles with door card in place, they have one-way speed nuts installed on the backside to prevent them from coming out. You will break posts. I had repaired my OEM grilles that were haphazardly screwed back onto the door cards.

[fallingat120mph]

I am running an amp (under the passenger seat), a small sub, and four component speakers.

Amp and speakers are alpine, the sub is JL Audio.

My headunits have been very tasteful old school Kenwoods but they haven't kept up with technology, and the modern ones are very..."blingy"... so I have the SQR 46 I will be installing here soon.

So, with the component speakers front and rear deck I have four tweeters and the sound is crisp and the tweeters are somewhat adjustable giving the highs some clarity.

I took a chance installing all component speakers but the sound has been amazing for an old 911...the subwoofer, behind me on the folded down seat (or I can hide on the floorboard), give just enough punch.

I love it and it's loud when I want it...

As I've stated in other stereo threads, I drive my 911 almost daily and do cross country drives in it...my phone works through the stereo and my GPS (Garmin) actually works through the Garmin app and it comes through the stereo also...


The car is over at a storage unit today but some of my setup is:







I rewired everything myself and it really wasn't that bad. All new power wires and speakers wires. Really was an eye opening experience as I got to see the original rats nest of wiring for traditional stereos and faders, etc...

I had zero experience and honestly, if I can do it anyone can.


I have zero regrets and love having a functional stereo in an old 911.

There are some pretty knowledgeable folks here, already posting, take advantage of them...the forums really helped me install my system



Hope this helps a bit -
Erik

[Otter74]

Originally Posted by rwest

Phasing is basically having the polarities correct on all the speakers + & - if you will. A speaker will play music just fine no matter which way you wire them, but if you wire one speaker wrong, it will be out of phase with the other and some frequencies can cancel each other out making the volume and quality lower.

Thanks! I’m putting a vintage radio in my E12 soon and I will remember this when I wire it in.

[tobluforu]

The sky is the limit, so to speak. Don't get an EQ. Get some speakers, good ones, separates are best with tweeter mounted higher. New head unit?
Sub, well these are small cars, up to you. Dynamat the doors.
Years ago, I put an amp in my 72 with separates, halfway decent head unit, and really, I never listen to it when i drive, but i don't drive long distances.

[jrwilson]

I run a SQR 46 with just the built in amp to Kappa rears and Morels up front, plus an under-seat powered sub and the sound is spectacular. Pretty simple.

[PopsRacer]

jm2c, ymmv… but the best thing you can do for any of these cars if you really want some sound is a decent subwoofer. The “why" is just physics - your response rolls off as the wavelength of the sound exceeds the diameter of the driver. 5-1/4” works out to about 2.5kHz at sea level. It’s why you see ports, big cone excursions and lots of wattage getting thrown around.. to overcome the tiny drivers and their terrible impedance match with the atmosphere. In fairness, low C on an organ is ~16Hz which is... 32 feet. Not exactly practical.. If you cross-over the little guys in the doors at 1k, or even 500Hz they will be much happier and you won't waste power trying to do sisyphean things with your car audio. Besides, lows are omnidirectional so it barely matters where you stick the sub. Have fun whichever way you go!

[josephvman]

I think you need to start with the radio, and either the Bremen or the Porsche Classic are good choices. The small screen and high price on the Porsche radio wasn't appealing to me, and unless I needed Apple Carplay I'd go with the Breman.

I've spent a fair amount of money on my system, which is now good but not great. It consists of the Bremen with Focal Coaxlal speakers in the doors and Infinity 4x6 in the rear, a JL Audio amp under hte drivers seat, and a compact JBL powered sub under the passenger seat.

After doing this, I realized that the only way to get really good sound in the car is to go with a 6.5" component speaker in the front doors, in addition to the amp and sub. I don't think the rear speakers make much of a difference, and wouldn't do anything back there unless you already have them in your rear deck. The Infinity 4x6 is a cheap and easy drop-in.

A 6.5" front door speaker will require a little modification of the door panel, but it's not too hard to fit a factory style grill and maintain a stock look. You can mount tweeters in the corners underneath the dash if you don't want to put them in the doors.

[Steve W]

I would just add that you probably want a lightweight and as simple a system as possible. And probably the most difficult challenge has always been to get the stereo image to come directly front and center of your driver's seat as if you were to listen to it on stereo speakers in your home, instead of sounding like it came from one door or the other. Installers have tried all kinds of tricks over the years including center channel speakers, spacial and time aligning processors, kickpanel speakers, tweeters behind the mirror, etc. all with limited results. But now that problem has been solved with Kicker's tiny Key200.4 with a 4-channel class D 200W (50x4) amplifier and weights like 2 lbs. It's an auto tuning amp/processor, each channel with its own independent 10 band parametric equalization, time alignment, and electronic crossover. You place the included mic in the driver seat listening position, press the auto tune button, and over 5 minutes of sending test tones to each speaker, it time aligns, crosses over, and parametrically equalizes each driver it to the listening position. The result is perfectly equalized sound with an image that comes directly center in front of you, above the dash as if from your front hood, with just two door speakers and two tweeters. Run in Bi-Amp mode with component speakers, and use two channels for the door speakers, and two channels for the tweeters. Mount your tweeters in the door above the woofer such as a 993, or place them in the kickpanel area. Auto tune will crossover the door woofers from the tweeters. If you add a sub, you can set the low pass filter to 80hz, and it has separate subwoofer signal out. I have one mounted behind the kickpanel floorboard of the front passenger seat. This little amp is way more than enough power than anyone would ever need.

The other thing to add would be a self powered subwoofer. After trying a few, I recommend the Cervin Vega VPAS12 as picture below. Out of all the underseat subs out there I tried, this one seems to have the largest driver and best output. And it is shallow enough at 3" to fit under the seats, including the factory motorized seats. Some of the ones I tried were the Kicker HS10, Cervin Vega VPAS10, and the Sound Ordinance B-8PTD, all of which I either retired or gave away. The Sound Ordinance is the lightest weight but it doesn't play that deep. With all these subs, you need to bolt or screw them firm to the floor, no straps or Velcro, or they will vibrate up and down and cancel the wave coming from the woofer, sounding very distorted and cutting output by half - it makes all the difference. That JL sub Erik reference above would go deeper and punch harder if you can fit it, but at 6.6" tall, it won't fit under most seats.

[PeteKz]

Steve, thanks for explaining your personal experience with several subs. When it comes to sound systems, I get really tired of hearing descriptions like "It punches hard!" or "Really woke up my sound!" or the like. Actual comparison of different subs in the same car are hard to come by, as I'm sure you know, because you had to come by it the hard way--with your own money.

I've been planning to install a sub in my car for years, but just haven't got around to it yet, partially because I didn't want to be disappointed with the results, as I have been so many times before. In my case, with a 1973 car with comfort seats, there is not enough room under them to install the sub. About the only place I can put one is on the rear package shelf.

Do you have any thoughts about that location?

[fallingat120mph]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

Steve, thanks for explaining your personal experience with several subs. When it comes to sound systems, I get really tired of hearing descriptions like "It punches hard!" or "Really woke up my sound!" or the like. Actual comparison of different subs in the same car are hard to come by, as I'm sure you know, because you had to come by it the hard way--with your own money.

I've been planning to install a sub in my car for years, but just haven't got around to it yet, partially because I didn't want to be disappointed with the results, as I have been so many times before. In my case, with a 1973 car with comfort seats, there is not enough room under them to install the sub. About the only place I can put one is on the rear package shelf.

Do you have any thoughts about that location?

Steve probably has the experience points on me by a mile, with the various trial and error...but...

Mine is on the rear seat shelf - created by the folded down back seat(s) - and it's a decent size, but the box fits perfect on the folded seat behind me and although not optimum by purist standards it does really fill in the sound. I have a pretty ample amp and able to power it to overcome not being flush on the floor, etc...

If you get the right power source and the right sub, I feel you would be happy. My 911 is in my storage unit right now, so no photos, no video, but if it comes down to you needing that I am happy to help...

I feel like the folded down seat, at least in my 86, does let the sub resonate a bit through the car...if that makes sense?

When I turn the sub "off" from the head unit I can definitely tell a big difference....but I have pretty much zero bass going to my 4 (component) speakers.



Erik

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

In my case, with a 1973 car with comfort seats, there is not enough room under them to install the sub. About the only place I can put one is on the rear package shelf.

Do you have any thoughts about that location?

Sorry I don't know what it looks like under 73 comfort seats. Do you really not have 3" clearance underneath? If so consider seats from a later car like an SC or a 3.2? Otherwise, I can't see how you can put a sub on your rear parcel shelf. The only other option I can see is having small custom enclosure about 1/3 to 1/2 CF made out of fiberglass to fit into one of the floor wells of the rear seat area, enclosing a high excursion 8" sub made for small enclosures, like an Image Dynamics ID8, and power it with a separate high power amp. That would look stealth and sound even better but then it's getting more complicated. Or maybe find an old Z-box enclosure made to fit into one of the rear seat side panels and put in an ID8.

[PeteKz]

Erik and Steve, thanks for the responses. I wasn't clear. I meant I was thinking I would put a powered sub, like one that would fit under a seat, on the package shelf. I've measured the space and I think it would perch there just fine.

Steve, there is very little space under the early seats, less than 2". I can hardly get my hand under it. I recently recovered the seats, so I don't want to swap seats to put a powered sub underneath. If I don't have good alternatives, I'll just put up with the tinny sound from the door speakers and dash-mounted tweeters around town, and use my AirPods on longer trips. A really nice feature of AirPods and similar items: they also provide noise cancelling, which makes long trips less tiring. They are very effective at cancelling road noise and wind noise.

[ant7]

Due to low' or sub bass having no real directionality, the sub could even go in the Trunk, inside the spare wheel is also a place I have fitted bespoke subs in the past, however; then your into having to run cables out of the cabin, not sure you'd want to do that, but its a thought.
Ant.