why does everyone crap on the C4?

[Yargk]

Originally posted by rdking
What I dont understand is that no one complains about the turbo having understeer and that is 4 wheel drive... what gives?

This is why I like GT2s, new turbos don't inspire me. In the most recent article of pano, they say that the new 996 C4S cab has understeer in tight turns with the psm off. Now if 996s and 993s still have understeer and 964s are substantially worse, I'd stay away from 964s. However, it shouldn't be so bad in the later models.

[caliber60]

This is why I like GT2s, new turbos don't inspire me. In the most recent article of pano, they say that the new 996 C4S cab has understeer in tight turns with the psm off. Now if 996s and 993s still have understeer and 964s are substantially worse, I'd stay away from 964s.

Sounds very technical but for all pratical purpose, does it really mean anything both on track and street? How many Porsche owners really have the actually experience of "understeer in tight turns" in their Porsche? Not not many owners is willing or capable throwing their $100,000 machine around the corner.

[Yargk]

Originally posted by caliber60
This is why I like GT2s, new turbos don't inspire me. In the most recent article of pano, they say that the new 996 C4S cab has understeer in tight turns with the psm off. Now if 996s and 993s still have understeer and 964s are substantially worse, I'd stay away from 964s.

Sounds very technical but for all pratical purpose, does it really mean anything both on track and street? How many Porsche owners really have the actually experience of "understeer in tight turns" in their Porsche? Not not many owners is willing or capable throwing their $100,000 machine around the corner.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only meaning I get from this reply is that if most Porsche owners don't know how to drive well, why make a car that drives well? If a large percentage of people who drive the car can't tell the difference, who cares if it has some characteristics that go against the performance aspects of the car? I find this depressing and I think it's sad if Porsche gets to that point.

If you take corners in a sporting fashion you'll notice it, understeer. These are sports cars. I recently read a post by a fellow who was hired to instruct for a group of individuals who rented a track. He got to drive the wheels off these people's cars. Among the cars was a Carrera 4. He was not impressed. Understeer was the primary complaint. I felt compelled to explain how this doesn't represent Porsche well. I almost said to go find a GT3 (or at least the C4S with a stiffer suspension). But I didn't. While I know that the GT3 would have satisfied him, should we need to go to the special models to have fun? Should the cheaper models be so numb with a level of understeer dialed in or should they be race car neutral?

[rattlsnak]

>>>I've never tracked my 964 C4, but I've also NEVER had an issue with the 'dreaded' understeer.<<

My cousin had a 90 C4 that he put well over 50,000 miles of TRACK time on it. I have never heard of the understeer issue either, I drove it at R/A a few times, it was awesome. It powered out of turns with the peace of mind that it wasnt coming around on you. He routinely beat just about every other 911 out there. (this was in 90-93). It was also a great auto crosser. Now, the cost factor, he had to replace two transfer drives and the front diff, at a cost of @ $12,000 each time. Now keep in mind, this car was abused HARD.

[Yargk]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
>>>I've never tracked my 964 C4, but I've also NEVER had an issue with the 'dreaded' understeer.<<

My cousin had a 90 C4 that he put well over 50,000 miles of TRACK time on it. I have never heard of the understeer issue either, I drove it at R/A a few times, it was awesome. It powered out of turns with the peace of mind that it wasnt coming around on you. He routinely beat just about every other 911 out there. (this was in 90-93). It was also a great auto crosser. Now, the cost factor, he had to replace two transfer drives and the front diff, at a cost of @ $12,000 each time. Now keep in mind, this car was abused HARD.

Regardless of the understeer issue, I'm happy to hear a story of someone using a sports car as it is intended to be used, even if it means a bit of maintenance. I'd probably have a ball riding shotgun.

I wonder why I hear so many times that the 964 C4 is better for snow, not track, because of an AWD system that puts too much power up front. Maybe it's not that bad, but the story is repeated so much that it has become lore. (Or just because 2wd porsche owners categorize it as bad just because it drives more like an S4.) I also wonder why the understeer issue can't be fixed with an alignment or adjustable sway bars. It seems that any problem from the factory like a bit of understeer should be easy to dial out if one was so inclined.

[stlrj]

I also wonder why the understeer issue can't be fixed with an alignment or adjustable sway bars.

If it were that easy then why hasn't it been done?

Usually with seemingly unlimited resources available for some, you could always throw some money at whatever problem you wanted to correct, like the "dreaded understeer" problem and that would be the end of it.

How come nobody has been able to resolve this annoyance by now?

Joe

[rdking]

I guess I will ask the question: anyone with a 964 C4 modify the suspension? If so what was the effect and did it reduce or eliminate the understeer?

[TMH]

Originally posted by rdking
I guess I will ask the question: anyone with a 964 C4 modify the suspension? If so what was the effect and did it reduce or eliminate the understeer?

Have you checked out John's 964 specific website. Here is a link to the suspension section of that site: http://www.porsche964.co.uk/technical/susp.htm

Some great info and links, and perhaps some names of folks with C4's who you can contact directly.

Tom

[arrivederci]

Originally posted by Jump2xs
The 993 C4, uses an entirely different system which depends on wheel rotation speed to determine how much torque goes to the front wheels. Under full traction conditions the torque split is 5% front 95% rear. If the rear tires are slipping relative to the fronts then more torque is sent to the front axel, to a maximum of 40% front, 60% rear. This system does not control each wheel like the Audi quattro (S4 is my daily) it controls only front to rear bias.

Just to clarify, the 993 C4 and S4 are entirely different. The S4 has a torsen center diff set at 50/50 split (but adjusts depending on speed differential), open front and rear diffs, and electronic intervention at the front or rear via brake pulsation. At speeds below 25 mph, it will pulse the brake on a spinning wheel based on the speed difference at that axle. Its a crude system, IMO, and it is disabled above 25 mph.

The 993 system favors RWD behavior due to its 5/95 split.