911S R Gruppe style project FINALLY

[Tspringer]

Well, Im finally, really, into getting this project done. My car is a '69 911S. I have the original engine on a stand, but installed is a Supertec built 2.7RS MFI engine that runs very strong. It still has a fuel in the oil rich running issue that I will be correcting shortly. Other than that, the car had upgraded torsion bars to 19mm front and 28 rear with the rubber A arm bushings replaced and turbo tie rods. Its totally stock other than that.

Today I totally removed the front suspension, fuel tank, front bumper, fuel pump, brake lines, steering, and the entire interior except for dash and guages.

The car will be an R Gruppe style hotrod. I am not doing anything that requires cutting into the car as I dont want to destroy any collectibility or its value. To my way of thinking.... if I keep all the original parts and only do bolt on stuff.... someone could put it back stock if they wanted. The car is going to be pretty hard core. I will drive it on the street, but my intentions are for track and autocross as the priority. Here is the plan and then a few questions for those who have travelled this road before.

1. Body and Interior. I am going to strip to bare metal and repaint in the front compartment. The fuel tank is also getting dipped and repainted gloss grey. I would love to find a plastic tank... The underside of the chassis and wheel wells as well as the interior area is also all getting stripped to bare metal and will then probably be painted with black POR-15. Im going with a full lightweight interior: RS door panels, Corbeau GT8 seats and a lightweight felt carpet kit. Im using a fiberglass front hood and glass front and rear bumpers, lexan vented rear quarter windows for the look.

Who knows a good place to get a felt carpet kit to do the entire interior? I have seen photos of such kits that replace all the other interior panels, but have no idea where to find one?

2. The Suspension will have 21mm front and 30mm rear torsion bars, and Smart Racing Products anti-roll bars. Im also going with Revalved Bilstien struts, adjustable rear spring plates, camber plates, strut brace, monoballs front and rear. Im going to find an aluminum front cross member and convert to aluminum rear bananna arms. The brakes will be the stock "S" alloy calipers with a cool brake kit, driller rotors, stainless lines, racing pads and fluid.

Do I need to be anticipating more brakes? Should I upgrade to a 23mm master cylinder? (I already have one...) What am I missing in these plans?

I will be running 15" x 6 deep dish Fuchs. I hope to get away with 225/45 rear and 205/50 front Hoosiers. I will roll the fender lips and run negative camber.

Im going to install a Dansk dual in/dual out stainless muffler (in place of the 2 in / 1 out now on the car). Im also putting in modified air filter housing, MSD6AL, and getting the oil cooler back on the car and working better.

I would post some pics of progress so far.... but for the life of me I cannot figure out how!


Terry
'69 911S hotrod project
'69 365GTB/4
'77 308GTB

[Randy Webb]

I'd use a CF engine lid.

Drilled rotors crack. Some PAG items have cast holes -- Carrera I think.

Check out Calzia's car on the 911S bd. -- It's a how to of losing wt. If you did all that and the Carbon Copy stuff in Excellence last month you would have a real light one.

[Elombard]

I dont think the aluminum (74 on) banana arms will work on a SWB car? Not sure though

[Tspringer]

Randy, can you point me toward Calzia? Im not sure what board your referencing?

The '69 is long wheel base. It was the first year. I am expecting to need different half shafts and maybe even hubs? I have searched the board and there does not appear to be any really definitive "how to" on converting an early car to the aluminum arms.

[911pcars]

There's an article, though not definitive. April, '96 Excellence.

There was another article in European Car a couple of years ago.

Calzia's article, which first appeared in Excellence Magazine, is reprinted here. It also contains the all-important charts missing from the magazine.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[Zeke]

I will answer your 23mm master cyl question. I think 19mm is enough for S fronts and M rear unless you want a real short pedal and like to push it real hard. I have the 19 on my 914 with the same cals as you. Works fine.

[skinnerd]

69 is not a short wheel base car
the aluminum arms will fit in a heart beat
I think you should do your own thing... be creative

[HarryD]

Originally posted by skinnerd
69 is not a short wheel base car
the aluminum arms will fit in a heart beat
I think you should do your own thing... be creative

Doug are you sure? If I am not mistaken, per Fere's book, in 1973, there was a second adjustment to the wheelbase at about this time as well.

Of course, this can just be another time to show my ignorance.

[Todd Simpson]

There's an article, though not definitive. April, '96 Excellence.

Sherwood's being modest, he wrote it!

[Todd Simpson]

One option to consider if the car will see a lot of track time is Carrera front calipers with the matching 24mm rotor. The S calipers are nice and light but a little extra rotor mass never hurts. I use them with stock '71T rear brakes and experience no fade at the track. Also 2 years on Zimmerman rotors with minimal wear and no cracks.

Seats. Peter Zwinakis is recreating RS seats www.vintageseats.com and can also make a set of "ST" or "Safari" seats.
Bare shell

Real ST seats.


You can send pics to me if you like and I will post.

[Randy Webb]

The article is great, but Exl. hacked the table out of the article. Maybe for more ad space. Last month's Carbon Copy article was also interesting, inpart because he took a very different route to wt. savings. I wrote Pete Stout, asking them to do a "how to" article on wt. reductions, esp. for street cars. If a lot of people chip in, we might see something. He's responsive to reader input as long as you don't ask him to do a web site.

Don't neglect the wt. savings of a Tilton type starter. You can also cut a lot of wt. from some engines by replacing exhaust and induction components (tho you lose cold weather driveability).

[Bobboloo]

Doug are you sure? If I am not mistaken, per Fere's book, in 1973, there was a second adjustment to the wheelbase at about this time as well.

I also recall this. The first change was about 2.25" in 69' and in 70' it was increased again but by a marginal amount. Something in the .5 inch area so I don't think it's much of an issue.

[lateapex911]

If you arre running 6" rims all the way around, I think you are pushing it on the tire sizes. Double check with Hoosier, but i think the 225s are going to be dodgy.

Here's their chart: http://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm

I tried cutting and pasting, but it was a mess! Click on "Road racing", then DOT radials....

[Jeroen]

Hmmm... 21/30 combo for the t-bars sounds a bit much in the rear to me.
I just installed 22/29 (in a 87 3.2 with G50 gearbox) and think 22/28 would have been a better combo. I have to run the rear swaybar nearly completely loose with the 29s in the rear.

Oh, and you might wanna consider the polybronze bushings from Elephant Racing. They're very nice!

cheers,

Jeroen

[Wayne 962]

"It still has a fuel in the oil rich running issue that I will be correcting shortly."

What does this mean?

-Wayne

[Chuck Moreland]

It's going to be a great car. As we discussed, its very similar to my '73 project - except you already have the motor I'm planning for next year!

I'll re-iterate my comments about the 23mm master cylinder. Too much for un-boosted S brakes, you'll need a very strong leg and it will be hard to modulate.

21/30 is too much bar in the rear, IMHO. If you like 21 up front, I'd go 27-28 rear. You'll get lots of conflicting advice on this.

I have 22/28 on my '73.

[Bobboloo]

Wayne,

I think he means that the oil smells of fuel caused by MFI out of adjustment or in some cases a pump that leaks fuel into the oil via the pump lubrication system.

[Randy W]

I agree with Chuck on the sway bar size, but differ in opinion on the larger MC. 21/27 would be perfect for the car you describe Terry. I have had a 23mm MC with S brakes for some time - harder pedal for sure, but actually better feel (once you get used to it) and you will not feel a fade as easily on the track either. If it's in the budget, I would hunt down a pair of 911R wheels if you plan on going to 225s in the back - look the same as deep dish fuchs but will work with longer studs and spacers.

[JP911]

Try www.appbiz.com for the RS Carpet kit (and door panels if you need them). They make a very high quality product.

[Bill Verburg]

The 23mm m/c is way too big for an S/M combo or A/M, it's barely tolerable in 964s w/o p/b and they have much more slave piston area.