2.7 to 901 problem-

rickeolis · 12:25 PM

I have converted my 1969 911 to a 2.7 liter motor, and am using my original (1969) 901 tranny, flywheel, and starter. But when I hit the starter, it meshes into the flywheel with a thud but does not turn. I know it is getting into the teeth of the flywheel because when I turn the motor over by hand after trying to start it, it releases the sarter gear back in. (Every time)
I have removed the starter and tested it with jumper cables and it spins up nicely and throws the gear forward.
I really think that it is not being able to push the gear far enough before it hits the collar of the starter at the base of the gear. What I mean is that on the test bench the gear moves forward about an inch and a quarter, but I think that once in the car, it barely goes past 3/4 of an inch and is not allowed to go further.
I used the stock 1969 (2.0 liter style) flywheel as I have read on this board that it is the one to use, and there is no spacer between the flywheel and engine, but there is the small spacer between the flywheel and the heads of the bolts mounting it.
I'm stumped mainly because I cannot verify what the problem really is...
Any ideas????

"An amateur built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

jluetjen · jluetjen's Garage

I had a problem exactly like that once in my FF and it turned out the PO had put in a starter that didn't mesh correctly with the ring gear. Is your starter the original 2.0 starter?

rickeolis · 09-26-2003, 12:47 PM

Yeah, it's the same one. I rebuilt it during the project's down time, but I have rebuilt many starters, and it does spin on the bench with noticeable power...

I am also wondering if it cannot handle spinning under a load for some reason. I don't know how to check for that.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

Let's start with the easy stuff.....then go for the hard stuff...

Make sure the ground strap is connected. Clean the contacts on all of the wires leading to the starter. Make sure the battery cables are really good and tight.

Is this a higher compression engine? Can you turn the engine by hand?

Quote:

Originally posted by rickeolis
"An amateur built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic."

True, but the Ark was Designed by God. The Titantic was designed by men.

Hmmmm...my Porsche was designed by men. Uh ohh....

James

john walker's workshop · 09-26-2003, 12:57 PM

the later starters are bigger and stronger. you're using a 2.0/914/vw starter now.

911pcars · 09-26-2003, 01:27 PM

Could it be a battery that's a little down on capacity? Connect a voltmeter to the battery posts, then crank. The voltage shouldn't fall below about 9 volts after cranking for about 20 seconds. That's assuming, of course, that the engine is cranking, which it isn't. Shouldn't be too different, just don't do this test too often w/o letting the starter cool down.

If the pinion gear engages the flywheel teeth and the engine doesn't crank, I'd suspect the battery or excessive voltage drop in the cranking circuit (assuming the engine is okay) - same thing red-beard suggests. Does the engine rotate okay with a bar on the pulley nut? Does the engine run okay after push-starting? Is the gearbox in neutral?

BTW, I had the 2.0/914/VW starter in my 2 liter/901 too. I'm still using it with a 2.7/915 and it still cranks fine. Don't think it's a matter of the type of starter but a lack of juice.

Sherwood Lee
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

rickeolis · 09-26-2003, 01:37 PM

Cranks over fine by hand with fair amount of resistance, about the same as what the 2.0 liter gives me. The 2.7 is basically stock.

I cannot bump start it as of yet because the brand new clutch cable I installed seems to be too long by about 3\4 of an inch too... That is this weekend's project.

It is in neutral, I have the shifter linkage hooked up nicely. CV joints are not installed until I solve this issue.

I have the original ground strap from the body to tranny installed, and I trickle charged the battery overnight, and while trying to start it I was jumping it from my truck too. Also I have additional ground wires installed on the engine bay to the side of the fender well.

911pcars · 09-26-2003, 01:52 PM

But is the battery okay? Check the voltage drop while cranking to make sure or take it down to a shop and have it checked out. Battery connections cables clean and tight? You can also remove the spark plugs to make the engine easier to crank.

Sherwood

Early_S_Man · 09-26-2003, 02:08 PM

Sounds like a starter solenoid issue to me ...

Have you checked the Voltage at Terminal 50 of the solenoid during starting? If an issue with one of the engine wiring harness connectors, or ignition switch is preventing 11.0 Volts from getting to the solenoid ... you may have your explanation.

Also, the solenoid may just be old and tired!

Granted, an SR-68 starter would probably solve the problem ... but a new/rebuilt SR-17 unit might be a fix, as well!

rickeolis · 09-26-2003, 02:16 PM

Hmmm, I am starting to wonder about the battery. I think I will get it down to a parts store to have them load test it, thanks.

Also I'll clean all the ground straps and wire ends with a wire toothbrush. Then really clean the battery leads, on the battery end as well as the (ground) body side too.

I have checked the tranny, starter, etc. for a good ground with my volt meter, but I know it can be a different story under a load.

If I can get my clutch cable situation fixed to where I can bump start the car, then I could blame the starter with a bit more confidence... (And it would be nice to see the car run again too!)

rickeolis · 09-26-2003, 02:21 PM

Warren, just saw your post-

Yeah, a high torque would be nice, but I can't just yet. ($280.00!!)

I would think that if the starter bench-tested fine that the solenoid would be OK, but it's a thought. I will try to check for voltage drop while starting too guys.

I don't have a voltage guage on the dash, so I will use my multi-meter and an external wire to check that out, thanks-

rickeolis · 09-29-2003, 08:26 AM

Well I tried everything that was suggested to no avail. So, upon hours of decision-making, I removed the engine and tranny again.

When I got the package on the ground again, I then separated the engine and tranny, cleaned up the mating surfaces, and did the same with the starter. Then I put them altogether again, and used a battery and jumper cables to see if the engine would crank at all before putting it back into the car. This time it did! I feel that something had caused the starter to not sit correctly in the plane of the gears on the flywheel(??!??$%??)

Then my only other problem was that I didn't have enough throw on the clutch to get a complete engagement, so I again took the tranny off to see why. What I found is that the fork arm, has a small plastic cup inside of it to help with a smooth action, but it was almost completely disintegrated. This causes about 1\8th of an inch of difference in where it sits laterally onto the tranny, but that amounts to nearly 3\4" of throw! So, I am replacing the cup which should solve this issue as well.

Removing the engine again turned out to be very productive for me, and it only took about 4 hours to do. Tonight I am looking at replacing it back into the car, and hopefully I'll hear it running very soon...

rickeolis · 09-30-2003, 09:37 AM

Took even less time to put the motor BACK in last night, but I didn't like the way my oil supply hose looks, so I going to change it before trying to crank it up.

I am finding the need for a few key tools...