CIS to EFI kit

[AlKidd]

He has a web site with a forum as well. Not a lot of traffic but just putting it out there.

Originally Posted by Otter74

Don't know how I never saw this thread before, but as an 8-year owner of a car with Tony's system on it I'm glad to have it as a reference now.

[Madness]

Just stubbled upon this thread looking for this exact thing.

lots of info here, lots to comb through.

I hadn't been able to find it so I'll ask. I got all new fancy hard fuel lines from Mason_paul on here. They go from the pump to the fuel filter and fuel accumulator.
Will I be able to use those same line with this?
Thanks in advance.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by Madness

Just stubbled upon this thread looking for this exact thing.

lots of info here, lots to comb through.

I hadn't been able to find it so I'll ask. I got all new fancy hard fuel lines from Mason_paul on here. They go from the pump to the fuel filter and fuel accumulator.
Will I be able to use those same line with this?
Thanks in advance.

Yes, but you will need other custom lines made to connect to the fuel rails and the fuel pressure regulator.

Edit: I believe hoses, fittings and instructions are included in the Bitz kit to make the hoses yourself.

[AlKidd]

FWIW, I skipped all the lines and just ran braided fuel lines from the tunnel up. There are compression to AN6 adapters that work with the pressures of the fuel pump. Doing this eliminates all the headaches of trying to join metric lines and eliminates all the factory accumulator filter etc. By dead heading the lines around the enginge instead of a loop as the original Bitz instructions indicate, plumbing is cut in half. AN fittings and filters are off the shelf. When I ultimately go to PMO's all I have to do is pop them on and change the brain and harness.

[AlKidd]

To answer your question specifically, you dont need the accumulator with the Bitz kit but a filter is a must. I tried to use the factory one but was looking at spending hundreds in custom lines to make it work. I just posted a pic of my set up. I choose an off the shelf 10 micron filter with a replaceable element. Cheaper than the Pcar one and a lot smaller. I couldnt get specs on the micron level of the factory one. The feed line from the pump goes into the filter, which then goes to the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). Return line exits the bottom of the FPR and returns to the tank. The lines to the injectors exit the FPR and T to Bank 1 and Bank 2. The pic on the right is what I mean. On the left is the original Bitz design. Both work. I just didnt like the extra plumbing with the potential for leaks on top of a hot engine.

Originally Posted by Madness

Just stubbled upon this thread looking for this exact thing.

lots of info here, lots to comb through.

I hadn't been able to find it so I'll ask. I got all new fancy hard fuel lines from Mason_paul on here. They go from the pump to the fuel filter and fuel accumulator.
Will I be able to use those same line with this?
Thanks in advance.

[gsmith660]

Recommend using a Teflon lined hose when you build your hoses I used regular fuel injection hose and I have a gas smell in the cockpit because ethanol can migrate through regular hose

[Madness]

Thanks for the input y'all.
I did read through it all last night. LOTS of great info and makes this far less daunting. I appreciate everybody who has contributed. I did end up finding my answer.

AlKidd, I like your layout. Less plumbing is my preference too. the aftermarket filter is a nice addition. I'll definitely be going that route too. unsure if i'll be doing hard lines or braided.

I believe the line I got from Paul are Teflon lined.

[AlKidd]

Most good braided is teflon lined for the reason he mentions. Drag cars all run straight alcohol. An connectors are easier to work with than hard lines ,in my opinion, and trying to make a flare at the rear of the engine compartment will do a # on your back. They will handle engine movement easier than hard. There is a reason Porsche had a flexible transition from the accumulator to the engine.

[AlKidd]

Originally Posted by gsmith660

Recommend using a Teflon lined hose when you build your hoses I used regular fuel injection hose and I have a gas smell in the cockpit because ethanol can migrate through regular hose

Did you run regular lines in the tunnel?

[Madness]

Originally Posted by AlKidd

Most good braided is teflon lined for the reason he mentions. Drag cars all run straight alcohol. An connectors are easier to work with than hard lines ,in my opinion, and trying to make a flare at the rear of the engine compartment will do a # on your back.

It just hit me, your the same guy that helped me out a lot on a fb page and you joined my fb build page. Took me a minute. lol.
I'll be doing this with the engine out so I'm not concerned with working in tight spots.

Originally Posted by AlKidd

They will handle engine movement easier than hard. There is a reason Porsche had a flexible transition from the accumulator to the engine.

I agree with this and the aforementioned kit I got does have braided lines. So I'll do that for the line from the accumulator to the engine.

Just so I'm clear on what the accumulator does. It sounds like its just a surge tank or reservoir and check valve for the gas. I understand the gas in the fuel system around the engine will get hot and boil under low pressure. so with the accumulator acting as a check valve, the fuel pressure in the engine compartment will be maintained and not boil, thus making hot starts possible.
So the reason the accumulator is not needed with the Bitz kit is because its EFI and not CIS.

Have I got all that right?

[AlKidd]

Thats me. Someone with more experience with CIS can better explain the purpose of the accumulator. I suspect as you do that it is a surge / check system balancing out the mechanical fuel distributor. I just know I dont use it on my car and it runs fine. EFI injectors are different too so it all works together.

Theres less risk of fuel boiling with FI systems as the fuel is constantly flowing back to the tank. Even more so with braided lines as they transfer less heat than metal ones do. Boiling is really an issue with carbs.

[TheBrokePilot]

Quick question about injectors. On tbitz site the injector cups say they work with EV1 injectors. Would newer EV6 injectors work with the bungs? I believe the portion that slots in the bung is the same dimension it's just skinnier for the rest of the injector. That's assuming it has the same connector as the harness in the kit

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by AlKidd

Did you run regular lines in the tunnel?

I didn’t and regret it I have the motor out and the gas tank drained so I will pull the braided lines out of the tunnel and replace with 1/2 inch stainless tubing

[SlowSpeedMAN]

Maybe it's been answered but i havent read the entire thread...
Bitz partial kit calls for Accel ACC-150630 injectors. What cars that can be found in a junk yard would have these exact injectors? Could even be Denso, Bosch or other brands i assume as long as specs and connector are the same.. This could help save a lot of money.

[WonkoTheSane]

Quick question since this thread has been revived; with the current Tbitz kits all being the MS2 now, does that mean they are now capable of controlling spark without any extra boards needed?

[rwest]

Originally Posted by SlowSpeedMAN

Maybe it's been answered but i havent read the entire thread...
Bitz partial kit calls for Accel ACC-150630 injectors. What cars that can be found in a junk yard would have these exact injectors? Could even be Denso, Bosch or other brands i assume as long as specs and connector are the same.. This could help save a lot of money.

Maybe this will help, it’s on Summit website and lists what cars can use the Accel injectors, so you might be able to reverse engineer what cars to look for.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/acc-150630/applications?srsltid=AfmBOoq9jbPJW7W3aOEcGEg4V66IR 8C2msehsHSTBY4xhC99U3jBzLbm

[tbitz]

wow, 22 years ago I started this EFI project and thread. My 911 is still with me running the EFI kit now with MS2.

To answer the questions above. This EFI kit is still only fuel, even with the MS2. You could add ignition, but its not something I provide.

The accumulator isn't needed with EFI because the fuel pump pressurizes the fuel rails as soon as the key is turned to RUN position. In CIS however the fuel pump comes on only after the engine is drawing enough air through the CIS metering plate to raise it and close the fuel pump circuit, which means a few cranks are needed. This delay in fuel pressure, delays the starting of the engine. This was addressed by adding the fuel accumulator which holds a small amount of fuel under pressure (using a massive spring!). So when you crank a CIS with a functioning accumulator the injectors have fuel pressure to get it started before the fuel pump starts running. Not sure how long that fuel stays pressurized in the accumulator though. I guess it depends on leaks in the system. Anyhow I'm sure there is good info in this forum about the accumulator, but it isn't needed with the EFI kit.

[tbitz]

For the fuel injectors, they need to be 30lbs/hr to work with the base map provided with the ECU, and high impedance, with EV1 body style. The EV1 body style is needed to work with the CIS to EFI bungs, and the Jetronic/Minitimer connector is used on the wiring harness.

Note the EFI kit calls for the fuel pressure to be 2.5bar (instead of 3.0bar) so the 30lbs/hr injectors flow less fuel since they are oversized to future proof folks doing crazy things like turbocharging the engine (see OSCAR Turbo). You can rescale this if you use lower flow rate injectors. The ACCEL injectors are touted as "low-mass disc design" which would allow for good pulse width control at low duty cycles.

I had done a custom CIS to EFI bung for a fellow that wanted to use EV6 style injectors. Some details here.

[gsmith660]

The Bitz kit is GREAT! My car is now MS3 running EDIS and turbocharged but still uses most of the original kit the 2.7 is now history and a 3.2 short stroke is being built with a target wheel hp of 600 hp and will continue to use most of the Bitz kit great starting point. I have had this kit over 15 years.

Originally Posted by tbitz

wow, 22 years ago I started this EFI project and thread. My 911 is still with me running the EFI kit now with MS2.

To answer the questions above. This EFI kit is still only fuel, even with the MS2. You could add ignition, but its not something I provide.

The accumulator isn't needed with EFI because the fuel pump pressurizes the fuel rails as soon as the key is turned to RUN position. In CIS however the fuel pump comes on only after the engine is drawing enough air through the CIS metering plate to raise it and close the fuel pump circuit, which means a few cranks are needed. This delay in fuel pressure, delays the starting of the engine. This was addressed by adding the fuel accumulator which holds a small amount of fuel under pressure (using a massive spring!). So when you crank a CIS with a functioning accumulator the injectors have fuel pressure to get it started before the fuel pump starts running. Not sure how long that fuel stays pressurized in the accumulator though. I guess it depends on leaks in the system. Anyhow I'm sure there is good info in this forum about the accumulator, but it isn't needed with the EFI kit.

[SlowSpeedMAN]

I'm planning on converting to the Bitz EFI kit and EDIS in the future if ever my CIS has more problems. So does MS3 support ignition and Bitz maps on one unit?

For EDIS conversion, what coil pack and crank sensor is best to source? I'll be scouring pick-n-pull yards to keep it cheap. Ford has older coil packs with 3 mounting bolts, and newer with 4 mounting bolts. Also different style crank sensors.