Brake Lines, pads, rotors - when to stop??

[Don Plumley]

Over this holiday break I'm planning on replacing my clutch M/C and S/C because of an intermittent clutch dragging problem. I also feel that I have a little more give in my braking than I like, so while I was working with brake fluid, I thought I'd replace my soft lines with new ones (probably ss braided ones).

Then I start down this slippery slope - my front rotors are getting near the wear limits, say 19-18.5mm (I'm no where near my car, so I'm just speculating from my last in-wheel look). Pads are getting "near" the limit as well.

And of course I should be replacing the front struts as they are original on a 15 year old car. Basically I have some pent-up maint to do on the Carrera but I worry about doing too much at one time and increasing my odds of messing up more stuff than usual.

Help me to draw the line - at what point does premptive maintenance become excessive?

Thanks!

Don

[North Coast Cab]

Do the clutch work and road test to your satisfaction. Then do the brake work and do the same. Then look at changing the struts. This way you won't have three projects going and be without for too long. Also, remember that after replacing the struts you'll need an alignment. You may also want to consider the bushing replacement at the same time.

John

[Jeff Alton]

Ummmm, I hope your rotors are not at 19mm. The minimum spec is 22mm. My advice would be to replace the things that need replacing (obviously) and then think carefully about what you can or need to do "while you are there". John's point about the struts and bushing is a good one. After doing both you will need and alignment, so why not do them both at the same time. If you are replacing rotors, what about wheel bearings? Stuts, how are the top mount bushings looking? etc etc. It sounds like you will be doing the maintenance yourself labour $$$ are not a concern, but do not pay to have things like an alignment done twice like I did if you do not have too!!

Cheers, Jeff

Jeff

[nostatic]

my dad used to say there are two important things on a car: brakes and steering. The rest is secondary. I'd do the brakes/rotors for sure. I think the struts and bushings are just a budget/time call. They will likely make a difference in feel, but I don't know that you save that much by doing them at the same times as the brakes except that you've already got the wheels off. You definitely want to only do the align/corner balance once though.

[Don Plumley]

Thanks for the replies/advice,

John - so you are saying that even though the brakes/cluch are both using the same fluid, you'd do them in two separate steps?

Jeff - I don't know the rotor measurement, I pulled it out of air. Could have just as likely been 22.5; last time I checked it was at least 0.5mm above minimum.

Todd - yup, I'm in agreement, Brakes are Important. The stuff certainly starts adding up (pads, rotors, bearing seals, retaining kit, etc.).

The reason I've not gotten around to the strut job is the c/b align. I keep thinking that I'll be wanting to renew bushings (which ones, I don't know yet!), look at ball joints, etc. - and I certainly don't want do re-do aligns for the lack of better planning.

Sounds like I should prioritize on clutch and brakes, then save the strut/bushings/et al for the next rotation...

Keep 'em coming (opinons, that is...)

Don

[KTL]

I agree on the clutch & brake suggestion.

I already covered the clutch stuff elsewhere so i'll throw in my 2 cents on the brake stuff.

First, if feel is what concerns you, make sure you consider your master cylinder. It's kinda old and has it been manually bled recently? The theory that the manual bleeding of an old MC can damage the seals seems valid to me. So if the seals are tired, the MC could be the cause of your spongy feel. And just as an aside here, even a new(er) MC can go bad. The MC (made by ATE incidentally) in my mother's '96 Olds Aurora took a crap on me earlier this year, after only 35K miles!

As long as you'll have the front hubs off to install new rotors, clean/flush out the old grease and repack the wheel bearings if not done recently. Check the bearing rollers and races for any scoring or bluing. If they look good then leave 'em alone. The front wheel bearings are supposed to be pretty darn durable according to Warren/Early_S_Man. The replacement of them (pesky part is the race removal & installation) is pretty easy but why bother if they're fine (if I recall, your car has pretty low mileage)? Use new seals for the backside of the hub. Not a good idea to reuse these seals.

Another way to improve the feel of the brakes is to use a slightly more aggressive pad compound (Performance Friction, Ferodo, Pagid, Axxis/PBR, etc.) and be sure to bed-in the new pads and rotors as this makes a noticeable difference in pedal feel. And when installing the new rotors, make sure to clean up the hub mating surface with a wire brush or file to get the corrosion off. If you don't do this, you can run the risk of having a pulsing pedal (feels like warped rotors) when the rotors don't sit flush against the hub. Also put some antiseize paste on the hub mounting surface to keep the rotor from sticking to it- will ease future removal.

Brake hoses are a wise choice, no doubt. For mostly street use, the OE hoses are just fine. The braided ones supposedly require more attention because the braid (and any grit that gets between the braid and the hose beneath) rubs the line over time.

I did all of the above mentioned stuff and my brakes are rock solid now. Actually they're strangely firm because I think my brake vaccuum booster went tits up. Dunno why.

As far as the suspension goes, any replacement of these components is certainly going to improve the feel of the car. My original Boge strut inserts (not really inserts but that's another story) were trashed with only 63K miles on them. Upper strut mounts are pretty beefy rubber and if they show no cracking or separation, they're probably still good.

A-arm bushings are the suspects that would probably need attention, regardless of miles. Age makes them mush or flatten from the weight of the car and the t-bars start to rub. Just look at the t-bar end cap behind the tie rod and see how much it's contacting the alum. crossmember. If the cap is wearing into the crossmember pretty good, then the bushings will need replacement in the future.

Tie rods are a tough call. But if the steering feels loose or sloppy and the protective boots at the ends show cracking and grease loss....... Turbo rods, a rack regrease and a few drops of oil on the steering u-joints went a long way towards tightening up my steering system. Addressing the steering is important IMO, because along with the brakes, the steering is something that you're always literally feeling/handling while you drive. Especially sensitive too since it's not power-assisted

[sammyg2]

Why would changing struts require a re-alighnment? I know the ride height can change a little (mine did but soon after settled down to almost where it was). Is that the reason were are refering to?
Thanks.

[masraum]

Changing struts would require realignment, but changing the strut inserts (what Don is probably talking about) will not require realignment.

Don, I would definitely replace the pads, rubber lines, maybe the rotors, and the strut (inserts) and shocks. I all of this earlier this year and it all made a big improvement. I might even recommend rebuilding the calipers, it's not that hard.

As far as the struts go, I had the original Boge units on my '88, and I thought it handled great (the bounce test doesn't work on these cars), but when I got the old units out (they are gas charged) they were completely shot. I put new bilsteins on and it was like a new car, simply amazing.

[Jeff Alton]

Sorry Don, I read your post too quickly and did not see that you were just eyeballing the rotor thickness. My apologies, I hope that I did not offend you.

Cheers, Jeff

[kellzey]

Stop here...

[Don Plumley]

Great stuff - thanks!

Kevin, all good advice. I think I'll do the struts (and look at the A arm bushings) after I get this set of projects done. I'm sure it will really improve the feel. What do you think about ball joints?

I already have turbo tie rods, so at least that's done. You remember right, the car as 75K miles, so the bearings (I repacked the outers once before) looked to be in good shape, so I'll just clean in thinner and repack with some M1 Synthetic goo I have laying around. New seals too. I'm ordering xdrill rotors (yeah, yeah, I know, microscopic cracks - but they do look neat, I'm not headed out for multiple DE's and after spending all this money on parts, I want something to look different!), and was thinking about metal masters - the Ferodos were ferocious in price.

Jeff - no worries.

Karl - "Stop Here" Literally!!

Thanks guys!

Don