Maximum downshift point - 2nd to 1st

[MMGM]

I have a recently acquired '85 911. The owner's manual says the maximum downshift point from 2nd to 1st is 39mph or 3750rpm. I say no way! There is no way I can get into 1st at anything over ~10mph and even that is pushing it. Sometimes at a full stop the only way into first is to press, release, and press the clutch again while in neutral in order to get it into the gear. Anyone else have this problem? What should I be looking at - synchros, bushings, ...?

[masraum]

Your syncros are probably shot. If you learn to double-clutch with some rev matching you should be able to downshift at a higher speed, but you don't necessarily need to...

The main reason the owner's manual specifies the max downshift point is to keep people from blowing up their engines.

Oh, BTW, I think, you've got a typo, I think that is 39 mph or 5750 rpm

Being an '85 you've got the notorious 915 tranny (probably shouldn't be that notorious). What's probably happened is that the previous owners have tried to pull the 1->2 shift like they were driving an old Chevelle, and the 915 just isn't designed to shift that fast.

[JonT]

Anyone else have this problem? That's funny ha ha--just everyone with a 915 transmission! There really is no reason to downshift to 1 except while stopped at a stoplight. Now there are a few tricks to get it into gear at that point--here are a few 1-while stopped and clutch depressed, move the shifter into 2nd then 1st. 2-blip the throttle slightly while clutch engaged and at the same time move shifter into 1st--this also helps if you are downshifting from 2nd to 1st and the car is moving (matches synchos to engine speed to make shift easy) and 3-jiggle the shifter a little while trying to engage 1st gear. I know this sounds like a PIA but these 915 transmissions can be tempermental. Some guys have had good luck replacing the bushings, installing a new gateshift kit from Seine or Robotek or Wevo and replacing the tranny fluid with Swepco. Lots of info on this board regarding this problem.

[MMGM]

Thanks Steve.

No typo - here's the maximum downshifting points from the manual:

5th to 4th: 122mph or 5200rpm
4th to 3rd: 98 or 5200
3rd to 2nd: 67 or 4500
2nd to 1st: 39 or 3750

[Schrup]

I wouldn't bother shifting into first untill you are at a dead stop. My syncros aren't shot & I still don't bother in order to try & perserve them. In fact my second gear syncros will need replacing before the first because I sometimes get too hastful trying to grab second. BTW don't push your odometer reset button while your moving or you may strip the nylon gear inside. Enjoy.

[masraum]

Hmm, weird, I think mine may be a tad different, but that wouldn't be surprising since mine's an '88 with a G50, no problem going into 1st there, but the 915 is a good box too when it's in good shape.

I would say the probability is that it's the syncros, but there is a possibility that replacing the bushings in the shifter, adjusting the coupler, replacing the clutch cable and making sure all of that stuff is working well could make a pretty big difference too. It may help or it may prolong how long it will be before you want to get a rebuild.

[Icemaster]

I'm betting everyone with a 915 tranny has the same issue, as did I.

I personally don't really see too much of a need to go from 2-1, by the time I get that slowed down, I'd rather just use the brakes.

As alluded to above, I DID have luck replacing the bushings, working on the linkage, although I haven't bumped to Swepco (yet...).

Try it out, what's to lose? The bushing kit is around 20-25 bucks, and the linkage adjustment just takes a little time to learn and make sure you know what your doing.

Do you have the mechanical history on the car? What's the mileage?You might be able to find some detail on whether or not the tranny/clutch/synchros have been worked on.

[amk]

I had a lot of problems getting into first when stationary, even when using the neutral-2-1 trick. I replaced the bushings and got a new shift coupler, it made a huge improvement. My 915 still has "character", but it's now much more user friendly and I have no problems with first. Now of only I could persuade it to let me do fast changes…

PS.
Don't know if it would let me do a 2-1 while moving… I never use the gears to slow the car and don’t think there would be any point in going to 1st to accelerate… I can do a quick 2-1 if I've almost stopped and take off again straight away.

[Emission]

I bet it is 39 mph if you are coasting (clutch in), not actually "in" second gear.

[stlrj]

All I know is that brake pads are a lot cheaper than synchros.

[84porsche]

I am so glad you guys have problems too. I thought I was losing my mind when I was shifting - its just the 915 - I have to slid to 2nd sometimes and at a stop light - I have to cycle the gears to make 1st available - depends on how warm the engine is though - in the morning it can be real stubborn. I can't complain though the car is pushing 190,000 miles estimated - darn gear broke on the odometer when I pushed it when the car was moving - before I found Pelican.

[TerryH]

replace motor $10,000
replace brake pads $100

Why would anyone use the motor to slow a car down?

If my car is rolling at 10+mph, I take off in second. I don't like the sounds of metal on metal. Makes my teeth... and pocketbook hurt.

[masraum]

Your car should fall into first if you doubleclutch and slide it into first just before you come to a stop, 800 rpm or whatever your idle is should be about 3-5 mph, if you try to put the car into first at that speed the syncro's shouldn't be necessary, and then you won't have to worry about grinding into first while at a complete stop.

[masraum]

I have driven an '84 with a 915 that was buttery smooth, amazing really, and I have driven a 915 car that was really hurting for some work. You can double-clutch and rev match and get my car into first at 35 if you want (I don't generally want).

One of these days I want a 911 with a 901 tranny.

[geof33]

The lovely 2-1 shift. I agree with the rest, no reason to DS into first ESPECIALLY at 35mph. My mechanic told me not to ever shift into first, as the 915 just doesn't like it much. Why waste perfectly good syncro's. I recently changed out and rebuilt my shifter and bushing along with a new shift coupler. HUGE difference!! The coupler was a loose, floppy, mess. Swepco too. I usually only shift into first as I'm slowing to stop. I have found that if I shift into first and coast to a stop with the clutch pushed and then take it out of first once I've stopped, nine times out of ten picking up first gear is no problem. I do not sit with the clutch pushed in. Ruins the throwout bearing...

Another thing is once the clutch is pushed, give the trans time to do it's thing and line everything up, then it will go right into first. The 915 has a mind of it's own sometimes and they each have a specific personality... Get to know yours well and you'll love it.

PS: I was REALLY blown away at how much better my shifter felt after rebuilding it... I'm still thinking of doing a WEVO though...

[Sonic dB]

I have learned to shift my 915 very smoothly and effectively. I know the proper shift points and never force it into gear, never grind.

Makes me wonder why my 915 has a little trouble from time to time in first or second gear. It is not due to any abuse from me....had to be one or more of the previous 6 owners.

With 88K miles on the car, the 915 is the only thing with any noticable wear and tear.

I wonder what the shifting would be like, had I been the only owner from day 1. Probably near perfect.

[speeder]

I have a rebuilt 915, factory ltd. slip in my car, and I can up/downshift into any gear from any gear between 0-6500 rpm w/o double clutching, putting it in another particular gear first, etc.....

I can downshift into 1st gear @ ~30 mph w/ no problem, but there is really no reason to w/ the torque available in 2nd @ that speed. The important thing is to have all of your gears available within their power range, shifting up or down. And only terrible drivers use a downshift in place of brakes; that is not even done on the track where it would upset the car completely. Brakes are for slowing/stopping, and the engine and trans are for going/accellerating. Never the other way around.

[geof33]

Speeder...

That is somewhat incorrect. Downshifting is nec coming into turns depending on the speed of the turn. F1 guys don't just brake (and slam three of four gears lower) they downshift all the way into the turn. It's a combination of the two. And of course the downshifting is only done coming in on a straight line into the corner in the break zones, not in the turn. If one downshifts in a turn... well say goodbye.

There shouldn't really be any brakeing in a turn anyway. There is a turn braking method which is combines acceleration and braking at the same to to maintain balance in the car. (I can't remember what it is called) It requires being able to brake with your left foot. Similar to heel/toe. In which case one would have downshifted to get in the proper gear to take the turn at full speed. Again, this is an F1 cornering strategy and works very well, but is difficult to learn.

[amk]

Speeder is correct, the gears are not for slowing the car.

Sure on approach to a corner you down shift, but that's in order to be in the correct gear to accelerate out of the corner. On changing down you blip the throttle (heal and toe), consequently there is no engine braking as a result of the down change and the cars balance is not affected.

Left foot braking allows the transition from trail braking into the corner to accelerating out of the corner to be quick and smooth. You need a sequential transmission or to be able to shift without using the clutch.

Regards,
Andrew.

[stlrj]

Keep downshifting into 1st and I'm sure you'll win the race to your mechanic.