Can't Shift Into First
 

Posted this thread a little while back so I ordered Wayne's "101 Projects" book for some guidance.

The book hasn't arrived yet, but I've done some searching here to find some more info. Earlier this week, it became impossible to shift into first. All other gears work just fine, but first just will not work!

Sitting in the garage with the engine off I've tried all gears and first feels like something is blocking it from engaging. I've pulled tha tunnel cover in front of the back seat and took a look, but everything there seems to be fine.

While looking, though, I found the shift coupler rubber boot stuffed back into the tunnel. It felt kinda stuck when I went to pull it out, but I was able to get it out. It was actually stuck enough to make me think (wishful thinkig, of course) that maybe it was somehow in the way of something, but this prooved to not be the case.

Anyway, it looks like everything is fine underneath the cover plate, but I still can't get into first. Does anyone have any ideas that I should be taking a look at?

Randy

a common problem is the toothed ring that is pressed onto the gear to contain the syncro ring looses a lot of teeth and the syncro expands and blocks the shift sleeve. the missing teeth often, but not always, end up in the drainplug magnet, so pull the drainplug and see. if that's the case, other things like the syncro ring, brake bands and stop dogs can get loose and swim around in the gear oil and possibly go thru the gears. that would not be good. best not to drive it in this condition.

Thanks for the quick reply, John! Looks like I'll be putting her up in the air and having a bit of fun...I'll post back with my results.

Randy

plenty of folks on the board have fixed their own transmissions. we'll walk you thru it.

Sounds bad. Fix it yourself. JW can walk you through a lot.

You guys sure don't waste any time! No sooner had I changed my mind and edited my post and here you are...encouraging me to exactly that!

Fixing it myself is exactly what I'll do! Thanks!!! :)
edit: Well.."myself" with a LOT of help from everyone here! :D

Randy

When I bought my present 911, it would not go into first. It was indeed bad syncros. Dropped it, changed out the bad parts, ok since.

Can we fix it? YES WE CAN! Sorry, too much Bob the Builder. JW walked me through mine and it shifts LIKE A DREAM. Maybe not a dream, but it's a wonderful thing to not grind your gears everytime you get in the car and NEVER have to worry about getting back into first from neutral at a stop light. I just dont even think about shifting anymore. Do it, you wont regret it.

I'm actually getting kinda excited about doing this. Picked up a floor jack and a pair of stands on the way into work this morning...I'll start on her as soon as I get home this evening. :D

Randy

Yeah, Do it. I did mine and John was a terrific asset. Besides all the good posts I called him up a couple of times when I got really stuck and his advise made the day. Mine wouldn't go into 3rd and it turned out to be a chewed up operating sleeve. I replaced all synchro's and the puppy is holding up fine to the 3.6 so far. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

The nice thing about working on a transmission as oposed to a motor is that they don't act like Schroedinger's cat. Once you pull the nose cover and the intermediate housing problems become pretty obvious, yet you are only down a couple of cheap paper gaskets. Do that to a motor and you talk several hundret dollars for gaskets right there.

FYI: I didn't even know that the gears in a transmission mesh all the time before I ripped into mine. So besides saving me a ton of money by simply handing the job off I learned how a transmission actually works. I have since rebuild a 3.6 with help from some local guys on the board.

Ingo

Just a quick question so I can get started as soon as I get home.

I'm sure there's a proper location for me to place the floor jack and the jack stands so I don't mess anything up lifting it, where would these locations be?

edit: Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ingo...hopefully I'll have the same results you had....feeling good about it so far!

Randy

the exhaust crossover pipe that runs under the bellhousing is jack friendly, if you have stock exhaust. get under the big flange, and be careful about the clutch arm just in front of it, so you don't catch it with the jack. the torsion bar tubes on the ends of the spring plates for the jack stands. and block the front wheels for the hell of it.

Got a late start....but it's in progress....sorta...

Got the jackstands in place where they fit under the car, but I'm not sure this is the right spot....John?...anyone?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082421823.jpg

I haven't set it down yet...just in case it's not...

Randy

That is indeed the right spot. Also, if you want to possibly save some undercoating on your torsion bar tubes, toss a little cardboard on the jack stands, and you'll need to go high with the car, don't be shy! I jack my car up from the oil plate on the bottom of the engine... I have a special "pad" of about 8 layers of cardboard which works great as a buffer b/w the jack and car.

I someday will hopefully fix my 2nd gear synchro which seems not to exist... no quick shifting for me!

Okay!

She resting on the stands...thanks J.Klaucke!....next round of questions...

1.) I'm assuming this is the drain plug I need to remove...looks as though there is a big-a$$ed allen wrench required for this....what size am I looking for?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082426817.jpg

2.) Is this the plate I need to remove AFTER I've drained the case?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082426867.jpg

I'm really appreciating all this help guys!

Randy

17mm allen wrench. they're usually real tight, so don't strip it out. you may need a breaker bar. there's an allen socket made for that, fits vw's. check the magnet for little teeth.
that square plate holds the shift rod guide fork. remove it and fish around in there with your finger for any crunchy bits. see that the fork is tight against the plate.

Okay...

Case was drained...oil looked pretty nasty but there were no metalic pieces in it or on the magnet...definitely time for a change, though. :)

Pulled the cover plate and found it to be intact. The fork was/is securely attached. Needs to be cleaned up a bit before reinstalling it, but other than that, no visible problems.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082509927.jpg

Unfortunately, as I was pulling the cover plate off, I saw/heard something go "Klunk" as it fell into the drain pan. The piece below seems to have come loose from somewhere.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082510026.jpg

Took a look up inside after swiping my fingers around. Neither felt or saw anything crunchy...just a bunch of oil.

Interestingly, I climbed into the drivers seat and the shifter moved fore and aft with no binding...NONE...couldn't discern between 1st and second. Third and Fourth, however, you could feel the notch between them....and the shifter wouldn't move over to allow Fifth and Reverse...

Now what? :D

Randy

That's No6 in the diagram called "brake band anchor block" .Go ahead disasemble the transmission. You need to get both the input shaft and the output shaft out to R&R the synchro. Pull the nose cover, 5th and reverse gear sets. Then work of the 27mm nut and the 43mm nut from the shafts and pull the intermediate cover.


Cheers,
Ingo

Here is the diagram to show you what you found. It's No.6
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082515564.jpg

Well, that wasn't what I was hoping to hear! :(

Anyway, I am at a complete loss...please forgive my ignorance, but which part is the nose cover and which is the Intermediate. And...what do I need to pull to get access to them?

There is a cross-over support that runs underneath the case which looks like it would need to come off before I can start dropping it...like in this pic...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082516877.jpg

Adding the following pic incase it helps describe what I need to be removing...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082516940.jpg

As always, really appreciate the help!

Randy

there is no intermediate plate on a 915. that piece is from the exploded syncro assembly of 1st gear. that's the stuff that can get caught up in the gears if you keep driving, and really do some serious damage. lucky you decided to fix it now rather than later. that rear sway bar needs to come out. you can take out the engine first, then the trans, or do them together. together is harder with a small floor jack because it's unwieldy and dangerous. go slow when you lower it, and repetedly check for stuff you forgot to disconnect. the short clutch arm needs to come off to separate engine fromn trans.

John,

I'm glad you have faith in my abilities, but I'm not sure if it's warranted. I mean....I'm no stranger to mechanical things, having been an aircraft mechanic in the Marine Corps for 20 years...but I'm beginning to fell a bit intimidated.

The only "manuals" I have for performing this task is the information I'm getting here. I've got Wayne's 101 Projects book on order and according to FedEx, it should be here tomorrow. Hopefully one of those projects is about how to drop the engine and another one is about how to drop the tranny. If not...I may have a problem...:eek:

I'm certainly willing to give it a try, but I just kinda assumed that my first real "project" on this thing would be something just a little bit simpler...like an oil change or something like that.

If the book gets here tomorrow AND if it has the directions I'll start in on it. I'll post back and let you know.

Thanks a million!!!

Randy

Randy,

no sweat. First remove the sway bar. Next decide how to get the transmission out of the car. As John mentioned there are two ways to do it. Drop the engine and the transmission as one unit or pull them seperately. I prefer to pull everything in one unit. My method is to disconnect everything, use two jack plates on either side of the car and two floorjacks: I raise the car by the two jack plates located in the rocker slots. Then I remove both rear wheels. Next I lower the car carefully so that the engine comes just about comes to rest onto a furniture dolly with its heat exchangers. The jacks are still in place and support part of the weight. Now it is time to cross-check that everything is disconnected: (throttle linkage, oil, electrics, shift linkage, half shafts, heat, etc.) Make a mental list: The engine needs inputs and puts out something. Then go through it many times until you are sure. When you remove the four bolts for the engine mount the engine/tranny combo should rest on the dolly. Now you can carefully lift up the car and balance the tansmission nose so that the selector shaft does not hit the tunnel. Trust me the first time it's an all weekend project. Once you have done it a couple of times you'll do it in two hours tops and laugh how easy it is.

Maybe there are fellow Pelicanites in your area and you can host an engine drop party. Has worked many times in the past. The bottom line is the transmission has to come out of the car and has to come apart. I wasn't aware yours was still in the car.

PS: You can find tons of engine drop threads on the board and you could buy Waynes 101 Projects. All good sources to get written material. And try to get ahold of either the Bentley manual and/or the factory workschop manual for the transmission details. Then use John's advice once it comes to disassembling the transmission. It'll save you alot of time and needs for special tool.

Cheers and good luck for your learning experience. It's a disease and you've just caught the virus...
Ingo

Ingo,

I really appreciate the vote of confidence. You and John make it sound so easy! The mark of a real professional, I suppose! :)

I do have Wayne's 101 Projects book on order and should hopefully have it tomorrow. Supposed to be kinda rainy this weekend so it looks like I know what I'll be doing "inside".

I'll see if I can't scrounge an extra floor jack from a buddy...not sure where to get the rest of the stuff...but I'll work it out. Maybe a local library might have a Bentley's.

And...if all goes well...after starting off with a "project" of this magnitude, this disease will really be incurable!!! :eek:

Randy

Randy, I was in the same boat you are in right now. A serious armchair engineer at the time I hadn't even done an oil change myself. Then the tranny let go and I had to get busy.

Oh yes I forgot I did try to disassemble my alternator before and trying to get the fan off I banged up the shaft with a steel hammer so bad that it was a basket case. So much for mechanical experience 18 month ago.

http://sswl.di.com/~ingo/transmission.htm Here are some pictures of what you are going to see when you have the tranny apart. ;)

Wait for Wayne's 101 book. You might want to order the Bentley for the 84-89 Porsche 911 too, for other projects that come up ;)
I've read both and have heard the Bentley is detailed spot-on for the Carrera engine/tranny drop and Wayne's more towards the 78-83 SC's
My.02
Just past the 666 devil post..:eek:

there's a plug just inboard of the left rear upper shock mount. don't forget to unplug it or it will be destroyed. disconnect the speedo connector in the tunnel by the shift coupler, and feed the plug thru the firewall.

Well, no progress tonight..."physical" progress that is... Got my 101 Projects book today and spent the evening reading the chapter on dropping the engine, and studying the pics. Figure this will help later on.

John, Ingo, Rick...appreciate the tips. Already flagging my book with yellow post-its. Thinking this book is gonna be getting a lot of usage so I'll probably end up with a second one just so I'll be able to read clean pages!

Oh Yeah, one more thing. It's autographed by Wayne himself , signed the day I ordered it...what a great touch!

After 2 years of being a "spectator" here, I really feel like I'm doing something worthy of being a genuine member! Thanks guys!

Randy

Randy, go step-by-step in Wayne's book for dropping this engine. There are little gotcha's along the way and the book will help you through most.

When you start to lower the engine, do it little tiny (maybe an inch or so) at a time to ensur eyou dont have a wire or fuel line connected as you are lowering it.

Randy is new to this kindof thing, so we need to start with giving him support for dropping the engine first and carefully. Randy, you may want to start a thread asking Pelican's in your area if they would like to give a hand for a couple of hours. I have a friend (Pat S) who helped me with my first Porsche engine drop (I've done many VW drops) and we've done probably 6-8 in the past 8 months. With some experienced help, you can drop the engine/tranny in about 2 hours and it's no big deal. Doing it yourself for the first time you HAVE to take your time and some good advice and perferably local help will make it simple.

If I was within an hour or so of you, I would not hesitate to lend a hand. Most of the Pelican's will do the same.

Good luck Devil Dog, may Chesty be with you ;)

Matt, do I detect a hint of Leatherneck in your tone? :) Step by step is exactly the way I plan to go...thanks!

As far as local help, I gladly welcome any and all help anybody would like to offer, either here or in my garage.

According to Wayne's book, the only tools required for this job are Metric Sockets, Key Wrenches, a Jack, Some Jack Stands, a Furniture Cart and some blocks of wood. For the Transmission part, I'll need some Snap-ring Pliers, a Synchro Removal Tool, a 30mm Deep Socket and an Impact Wrench.

Most of these things I have or can pick up at the local Home Depot, but the Synchro Removal Tool I'm pretty sure they won't have on hand. ;) Is that something I can get from Wayne? And, are there any other "nice-to-have" tools that anyone can recommend?

Got a question about draining the oil, also. For the engine drop, I need to drain the engine. To do this properly, I need to warm it up first. Since the tranny case has already been drained, I'm thinking I'll just be draining the engine cold since I can't spin the tranny, is this correct?

As far as an Engine Dropping Party, as I said, my plans are to start on this around 9:00 or 10:00 Saturday and that's about 90% for sure. Would just hate to have people plan to show up and not have an engine for them to drop! If anyone is interested though, you can e-mail me, PM me, or just post it here

Thanks everyone!

Randy

Randy,

For the tools you are right on. Don't get too carried away for special tranny tools and buying them all. You might be able to find a shop in your area that does Volkswagen and can help you once you have the gears with the synchro's off the shafts. That's what I did. But yes our host sells all the tools.

What you do need is a couple of big sockets. If I rememeber correctly it's a 27mm impact and a 43mm to get the two nuts of the shafts once you start to rip into the tranny. Once you get to the inards make your live easier by not removing the shift forks from the rods even though both Bentley and the factory WSM say so. That'll save you a lot of special tool time to get things back.

Yes you don't want to fire up the engine since there is no gear oil in the tranny. The input shaft spins once you release the clutch in neutral and would make a mees through the fork cover. Plus it might even be in gear. Just drain it cold and give it enough time. Think about it. There will alway several quarts remain in the car anyway (cooler, lines, etc). Now if you don't warm it up maybe several.2 quarts stay.

I'll drop her back down and start draining her tonight then. I've got the contents of the tranny case in my drain pan now, but it's a 15 qt. size so hopefully it will be big enough.

I've read about how the hole in the thing can be too small sometimes, causing oil to go all over the place. I'll probably just cut the hole bigger and put some tape or something over it when it comes time to drive it to the disposal site.

Randy!

keep dumping the oil out of your pan. You don't want to over flow it. It makes a big mess.

Let's just say I had some fun at P.I., 3rd batallion, H company...USMC 84-88. Lots of fond memories of Cherry Point and not-so fond memories of 29 "Stumps" :)

You'll be a bit tight getting your tranny and engine oil into 15 quarts as your engine/oil tank will dump about 9 quarts by itself. It's a heck of alot of oil, so I'd drain him in between.

I went almost entirely by the instructions of the Bently book I have. It was pretty good and JW filled in all the gaps. I read the different tranny parts of the book several times before I could understand the vocabulary and feel comfortable with tearing it down. Then, all of the sudden, the light went on and it didnt seem so daunting.

One thing I learned: if you're not sure about how something comes apart or goes together, you're about 90% sure to do it wrong. Just stop and post a question. I PMed JW several times when I got stuck. Patience is key.

You're soooo lucky you didnt drive it anymore after pulling that thrust block out. If that's out, then your snap ring is gone too on one of the gears and that is disaster waiting to happen. Good luck brother :)

Ahhhh, the Stumps! I have many a "not-so-fond" memories of the stumps! :)

Well, initially, I was hoping this would work out to being a week-end job (albeit a LONG weekend) but the more I look at it, I'm thinking I'll be working this over at least 2 weekends.

Going for the engine/tranny drop for this weekend and working the tranny issue throughout the week and then, if all goes well enough...putting her back together next weekend. I'm sure I'll have loads of questions once I get into the tranny, and I would rather take the time to do it right the first time. Plus, I think I'd like to take the time to do some cleaning up on the engine as well as inside the engine bay.

Ingo, I think I'll follow your method of setting the engine onto my furniture dolly and raising the car from around it. Seems to be the safest way of dropping it.

John, I'll be heeding all of your advice as well. I'm sure I'll be posting here quite a bit over the next week or two.

Geeze, feel like I'm back in the Corps, preparing for a mission or something..."Johnson, if I don't make it back, tell my gurl I luv her..." :D

Randy

Randy,

This forum will keep you pointed in the right direction. Check out from the library ALL the 911 do-it-yourself manuals. See if you can borrow and photocopy the relevant parts of the Factory manuals. Each has a slightly different perspective and all are useful.

Your digital camera works well. Start getting images of everything as you take the engine and transmission out and particularly during disassembly. Can you save on CDs?

Start collecting the obviously necessary parts today (4-23-04). You will need lubricants, transmission gasket set, CV Skorr washers and possibly bolts, you might add an oil filter. Don’t buy any transmission parts until you see what you need.

Aah yes, the proverbial “While-You-Are-There” issues. The most important is the clutch. Certainly you should inspect all the clutch parts. Most will recommend a new disc unless yours is “like new.” Cleaning and lube the clutch and throttle linkage is easy at this stage of disassembly. This is a good time to inspect the CV boots.

I am impressed with your goal of removal this weekend, repair the transmission during the week, and reinstall next weekend. Be prepared that it might take longer.

When removing the engine and transmission and you have the four mount bolts out, the engine and trans should always be “loose” as it comes out. If it tightens up and won’t rock easily, that is a sign it has hung up on something or there is something not disconnected. Careful does it can save an expensive blunder. While it is coming out, also be thinking about how you will reinstall it.

With only two jack stands and the rear wheels off, don’t ever get under the car. Find additional safety support. Yes, block both front wheels both directions.

What is your e-mail address? There are many things I can scan and e-mail to you but I don’t seem to be able to get the file size down to the 100K for Pelican.

Good luck.

Best,
Grady

Grady, Use this free software to reduce image size; it works quite well.

http://www.irfanview.com/

Jim

Grady,

Yes indeed, that camera has been a vital tool in several projects around the house. It saves directly to a floppy disk, which is really convenient. I'll also have a laptop pc with me in the garage to give me wireless access to you guys here.

My e-mail address is R.CECALE@COMCAST.NET, if you wanna send me some stuff. Jim Sims' idea of resizing and posting them here sounds like a good idea too, for anyone else looking to drop their engine.

Great idea, getting the parts required for re-assembly now. I've been focusing so much on the drop and repairing the tranny that I didn't even think about things like gaskets and the like. My drop and re-install "plan" is carved into jello, so if it doesn't go as scheduled, I'll be flexible. As I said, I'd rather take the time to do it right the first time.

Right now, I have jackstands underneath the torsion bar covers. Where else would be another good place for them for backup? And also, once I remove the engine mount bolts, where would be the best place to jack the rear-end up from? I'll have a pair of floor jacks, so I was thinking of one on each side, under the jack pads, raising it up slowly and evenly...is there a better way?

Randy

Just a thought...

While I have the engine out, would this be a good time to maybe raise the rear end a bit? Or do you think she needs it?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1082752870.jpg

Randy