The ultimate brake upgrade page.

[coomo]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

All the rear M's are the same from '69 - 83, all are steel, all use the same rotor and no alloy options that I know of.

Thankyou Sir.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by coomo

Thanks for that.However, after many hours reading threads on the subject im convinced that Porsche did a pretty good job.The standard brake set ups are fine for a street car.I was only changing to Boxsters, for cosmetic/weight reasons really.Any weight saved is largely used up by larger rotors anyway!
The "theme" with this build is lightness.Thats my main priority,obviously not compromising performance,

makes sense! and, if you run into fade issues at some point in the future, you'd still have the Carrera rotors as another upgrade option.

[Mr. Merk]

What are people using for cooling ducts on Carreras these days? Still 993 or watercooled stuff?

I saw these for $5ea https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/99734148492M100.htm?pn=997-341-484-92-M100&bt=Y&fs=0&SVSVSI=1886

[kent olsen]

Only a select years 05-11

[Flojo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Merk

What are people using for cooling ducts on Carreras these days?

I make this:

brake cooling duct system

[kent olsen]

Brake cooling, my experience .

Back in the 70's I worked with a race team running Corvettes and we built a ducted system that really worked.

Now I've run my 72T on about 8 different tracks in the SE US and on the West Coast. The only time I had brake fade was at Sebring. After that I bought 'drilled and slotted' rotors and have never had brake fade again. My rotors are over 10 years old and I've also never had any chipping or cracking.

[Mr. Merk]

Originally Posted by kent olsen

Brake cooling, my experience .

Back in the 70's I worked with a race team running Corvettes and we built a ducted system that really worked.

Now I've run my 72T on about 8 different tracks in the SE US and on the West Coast. The only time I had brake fade was at Sebring. After that I bought 'drilled and slotted' rotors and have never had brake fade again. My rotors are over 10 years old and I've also never had any chipping or cracking.

I absolutely cooked mine running the "Pig Trail" Hwy 23 on Sunday. When they get hot they start shaking pretty quickly, then came the fade and smoke. Porterfield R4S front pads, Stoptech slotted front rotors, and stainless lines. New OEM rear pads and turned rotors.

I don't remember having this issue on the original brakes.

[Bill Verburg]

There are intrinsic and extrinsic factors that will determine brake life expectancy

Intrinsic: engine power, chassis weight, brake specs, cooling strategy
Extrinsic: driver, track, environmental factors


here's a survey the compares the intrinsic factors of most 911 variants


For track use the intrinsic factors approach a critical level at ~500 at this level careful management of the brake thermal resources becomes increasingly important, extrinsic factors will modify this somewhat ie hot days, tracks w/ lots of heavy repeated braking will raise stress levels to varying extents, Beyond the above the driver is central, some guys just rely on the brakes more than others,usually this can be taught away to a large extent.

My track car has a stress level of ~311 but front rotors will be shot after ~20 day, f/r pads roughly the same rear rotors ~40days.
My street car is ~288, I haven't had to touch the brakes excpt for fluid in 15yrs, Talk about overkill.

Your experience will certainly vary

[Trackrash]

As usual, Bill, you show up with a baffling chart.

So what units are these stress numbers in?

I'm guessing higher numbers are higher stress? Meaning thermal stress? Interesting that the early cars with the S brakes have numbers approaching 500.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Trackrash

As usual, Bill, you show up with a baffling chart.

So what units are these stress numbers in?

I'm guessing higher numbers are higher stress? Meaning thermal stress? Interesting that the early cars with the S brakes have numbers approaching 500.

No units just a relative gauge to assess the relative life expectancy of various setups, in puts are hp, torque, chassis weight and brake roor volume. I could add lots of other things but the primary factors already involved determine the relative thermal stress which determines the life expectancy, all other factors being equal.

Yes early cars approach the critical 500# but they are under it. I had a '72 S when I first started track days and even at 462 I could fry a set of pads in a 3x 20 min session, blame it on poor driver, street pads, Dot3 fluid of the day, My next cars was a '76 C3 at 492 I could get through 2 days, 6x 25min sessions, again blame the driver, street pads Dot3 fluid of the day, I don'y know about pother drivers from back then but these days I know PCA stock class racers w/ SC's ~ 530 or a little less due to weight reductions that can get through a race weekend w/ little issue using cooling, race pads and SRF, These are good drivers that don't use he brakes as much as beginners. As I said my 993 is around 311 around 20 days a season w/ 3 - 4 1 hr sessions most days at WGI, fluid(Motul or ATE200)lasts a season, pads(PFS or Pagid race) and rotors usually last a season tho the rear rotors I can usually get 2 seasons. But while On track never an issue of any sort if if the sessions get stretched beyond an hour, Several friends w/ '73RS clones also get similar life though w/ a bit more maintenance between days and they need SRF

[wjdunham]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

9

When opening up the throat to accept the larger rotors - in addition to grinding the "nubs" and steel brake pad retainer it looks like the middle "nub" and the hex head bolt also needs to be ground down. On my calipers at least, looks like this will need to be done to get a 28mm rotor to fit. From the photo above, it looks like the bolt has been left in place and ground down a bit, no?

Bill

[911pcars]

To add to the brake braintrust, here's a website I stumbled upon. This company (German) sells from stock as well as fabricates brake caliper adapters.

https://epytec.de/en/brake-system/adapters/1452/brake-caliper-adapter-custom-made-manufacturing?c=2047

The site provides a customer form (PDF) to input caliper dimensions needed to mount/match a selected rotor to a vehicle.




BTW, it's handy to read German or have access to a German-to-English translation service (see Google). E.g.

https://epytec.de/de/porsche-911f-carrera-rs-2-7-bremsanlage-bremssattel-adapter-wilwood-bremsscheiben-2368?c=1953

(Translated) Required components:
**** Wilwood calipers part number: Z-120-7471
**** Original brake disc from the rear axle

Brake caliper adapter for the rear axle of the Porsche 911 F series on the Wilwood brake calipers in conjunction with the original brake discs.

Advantages of this brake system:
**** Extreme deceleration values also in connection with our rear axle brake system
**** Thanks to the material certificate included in the scope of delivery, entry by individual acceptance can also be made possible for series vehicles
**** Fits directly to the models mentioned above and can therefore be easily retrofitted to their original condition at any time
**** Our EPYTEC brake caliper adapters do not require you to send in your serial parts, do not have to weld, re-mill or re-drill.

Hope this helps. May help owners here who wish to do a group purchase for a desired caliper/rotor upgrade. For example, 9Products.com had a prototype 964 to early 911 adapter, prototyped but never marketed. Not sure why, and they haven't replied. Any takers?





Sherwood

[chrismorse]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

To add to the brake braintrust, here's a website I stumbled upon. This company (German) sells from stock as well as fabricates brake caliper adapters.

https://epytec.de/en/brake-system/adapters/1452/brake-caliper-adapter-custom-made-manufacturing?c=2047

The site provides a customer form (PDF) to input caliper dimensions needed to mount/match a selected rotor to a vehicle.




BTW, it's handy to read German or have access to a German-to-English translation service (see Google). E.g.

https://epytec.de/de/porsche-911f-carrera-rs-2-7-bremsanlage-bremssattel-adapter-wilwood-bremsscheiben-2368?c=1953

(Translated) Required components:
**** Wilwood calipers part number: Z-120-7471
**** Original brake disc from the rear axle

Brake caliper adapter for the rear axle of the Porsche 911 F series on the Wilwood brake calipers in conjunction with the original brake discs.

Advantages of this brake system:
**** Extreme deceleration values also in connection with our rear axle brake system
**** Thanks to the material certificate included in the scope of delivery, entry by individual acceptance can also be made possible for series vehicles
**** Fits directly to the models mentioned above and can therefore be easily retrofitted to their original condition at any time
**** Our EPYTEC brake caliper adapters do not require you to send in your serial parts, do not have to weld, re-mill or re-drill.

Hope this helps. May help owners here who wish to do a group purchase for a desired caliper/rotor upgrade. For example, 9Products.com had a prototype 964 to early 911 adapter, prototyped but never marketed. Not sure why, and they haven't replied. Any takers?





Sherwood

Oils


Could this adaptor fit a Brembo caliper over a 28mm rotor under a 15 inch Fuchs to a 3 inch strut??
Is there a quality curved vane disc available??

Sounds interesting,
chris

[porschke911]

Bill Verburg. I'm confused a bit. Near the start of this discussion you mention that the 993 caliper upgrade is better than the 964/944 upgrade. I found another discussion where you mentioned that the 993 and 964 calipers use the same pad. If the pads are the same, why is the 993 the better option. BTW I am currently installing 993 calipers

[Flojo]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Sherwood

Unfortunately the company 9products didn't go bexond prototyping and does not respond to any contact, neither via mail nor via instagram

[porschke911]

Originally Posted by Flojo

Unfortunately the company 9products didn't go bexond prototyping and does not respond to any contact, neither via mail nor via instagram

That is a shame that they don't respond. I'm currently making adaptors to mount 993 calipers on my 73 911 and it is a lot of work. Especially the finishing to make them look half decent

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by porschke911

Bill Verburg. I'm confused a bit. Near the start of this discussion you mention that the 993 caliper upgrade is better than the 964/944 upgrade. I found another discussion where you mentioned that the 993 and 964 calipers use the same pad. If the pads are the same, why is the 993 the better option. BTW I am currently installing 993 calipers

The pad size only correlates to the useable life expectancy of the pads, 993 front are bigger that 964 front and will thus last longer, 993 & 964 & 930 f/r rear are the same size and will have similar life spans in similar applications.

where 993 are better is the ease of adaption to a 911 and slightly better bias and brake torque. Both 964 and 993 f/r can be adapted to 930 rotors on a 911, so there they are pretty much the same but 993 front caliper is a radial mount design and adapters are readily available while the 964 is an axial mount design which needs to be machined to accept a caliper adaptor, that isn't commonly done. In back both the 993 and 964 rear are the same size and use exactly the same pads as 930s but the 993 has bigger pistons which generate more brake torque similar to the 993 front pistons compared to 964 front, the 993 bias is also slightly better when all other things are considered. 270 bar line pressure 993 front develops 2230NM of brake torque and 964 front generates 2203NM, 993 rear generates 1390NM and 964 generates 1341NM for the 2 piston rear and 1167 for the 4 piston rear

[Peter Bull]

Instant G has a kit that makes it possible to use stock 996 rotors and calipers. Some installation notes and experiences are outlined here.

/Peter

[frankoporsche]

got it..Thanks

[Mr. Merk]

Originally Posted by Mr. Merk

I absolutely cooked mine running the "Pig Trail" Hwy 23 on Sunday. When they get hot they start shaking pretty quickly, then came the fade and smoke. Porterfield R4S front pads, Stoptech slotted front rotors, and stainless lines. New OEM rear pads and turned rotors.

I don't remember having this issue on the original brakes.

UPDATE:

Threw the Stoptech slotted rotors in the trash. Replaced with (stock) Zimmerman rotors and (stock) Textar pads. Removed the backing plates, added 993 cooling ducts and Endless fluid. Went to Colorado and beat up the brakes.

Had zero shake or fade coming down the mountains at speed. Braking was adequate.