How to heel-toe on a 911?!

[Apollo11]

Hi all

In my daily car, the pedal position makes heel-toe rather easy.
However, in a 911, i find the brake pedal to be to much offset from the acelerator pedal, and that makes heel-toe to seem impossible for me (i'm no Walter Rohrl ). I guess i would have to almost bend my foot completely to reach the acelerator pedal... Not confortable at all, not to say inefficient...

So, what is the best way to heel-toe on a 911?! Is there any special trick?

Cheers

[sundaypunch]

I have a stock pedal setup and it works fine. I don't use my heel, I use the ball of the foot on the brake and then roll the side over to blip the throttle. Maybe the travel on your brake pedal makes it difficult?

[87turbolook911]

Try taking off the rubber pad on the brake pedal....made it a lot easier for me to heel and toe last weekend on the track...

you'll want to take the pad off the clutch as well.

[84porsche]

Is it much quicker to go heel to toe rather than just keep your foot off the brake all together. I don't get much roll back except on big hills but it is not enough to make a major difference assuming your feet are quick enough.

[yelcab1]

I agree with your assessment of the Porsche pedal arrangement. My BMW pedals are set up just fine for H&T. You need 1 more inch on the gas pedal, back toward the driver.

What I did with the old Porsche I had was to get my neighbor to make a 1 inch thick block of soft wood in the outline of the pedal, painted black, screw it to the top of the gas pedal, and reinstall. It was then just... perfect.

Haven't done that to the SC yet. I am not a wood worker.

[Paulporsche]

I think there is some adjustment on pedal locations in a 911. Maybe Bentley or Haynes can assist.

Paul

[nostatic]

there is no way I can get my size 12 foot to contort h-t. In my 4-runner it is easy. Rennline makes an adjustable accelerator pedal that can help close the gap between the brake and accel. pedal distance.

[Quicksilver]

I not sure what the problem with heel-toe is. I would have to see what your feet are doing.

A good place to start would be with the ball of your foot pressing the brake pedal pad about 3/4 inch from the left edge of the pedal, and centered vertically. Your foot should be 'pigeon toed' so your heel is out to the right. This should make it easy to roll onto the gas with right edge of your foot about an inch or so above your heel.

If you find that you have to roll to far to contact the accelerator (it feels like your foot will slide off the brake) then you need to lower the brake pedal. There is a rod that goes up from the brake pedal that you simply need to shorten.


BTW - 84porsche, you were joking weren't you? Heel toe doesn't have anything to do with starting the car from a dead stop.

Wayne

[island911]

Originally posted by Paulporsche
I think there is some adjustment on pedal locations in a 911. Maybe Bentley or Haynes can assist.

Paul

Absolutely! . . .like four different places to adjust up the linkage. . . . if its that far away from the brake-pedal, you likely are not getting full throttle.

You can also find the info here on Pelican. Search "throttle adjustment" heres a link. (click)

[john_colasante]

It takes practice. Similar to playing a guitar, at first you think there is no way you can ever contort your fingers to play a chord - but after many, many hours you get it and it seems natural and easy. Same thing with heel/toe on a 911, but not as much work as a guitar of course. Note funky pedals are not required. Look at factory and vintage Porsche racing cars and you see the stock rubber pedals.

[nostatic]

does that mean I have to tune my pedals? Or tuna fish?

[island911]

tuna fish? . ..is it chicken? . . do you tune your chicken often?

[nostatic]

no, it just tastes like chicken.

[IROC]

Another factor that I have found is that it is easier to heel and toe in the heat of battle (on the track) than it is on the street. On the street, I am not braking hard enough to get the brake/throttle into the optimum position to heel and toe.

Like was mentioned, thouhg - adjust the height of the brake pedal (down and closer to the throttle) and it will ne easier.

Mike

[hesaputz]

Amen to Iroc

I think some of the posters here are attempting this in street conditions, not under threshold braking at the track. The stock 911 pedal position is the best, a natural for me, like breathing or staring at a good sized pair of zonkers. I've had a few cars that required minor pedal adjustments, but that's just fine tuning. The earlier 911's high effort braking system makes heel and toe easier, because minor variations in pressure as you work the accelerator don't lock up the brakes or upset the car. i tried a friend's RX8 last week, and the girly braking system was most difficult to downshift with; The BMW's are better, I can work them, but the 911s far the most natural to me.

DG

[84porsche]

Looks like I misread - I was thinking about starting on a hill deadstop not actually powering through a turn. My only attempt at heel toe failed when I entered a turn at 50 mph and slide the back end out. Looks like I still have a lot to learn with stick shift driving. I have only been driving stick shift consistently for about 4 months now. Here is some research I thought would teach me a little more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-Toe

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

[efhughes3]

At first, I used to think H-T was impossible in my car. If you read the descriptions above, they are all accurate descriptions of what I learned to do. It doesn't take much practice before it feels natural enough. When I'm driving, I often gravitate to this method of working the foot thingies.

[Grady Clay]

84porsche,
Don’t feel bad, I use the parking brake in most hilly situations.


Mike, DG, John, more,

I also agree that H&T is not necessary in most street situations. However, that is where you practice it. The goal is for H&T to be the natural for operating the 911. When on track then it is second nature. Even in my lame old age I still position my right foot to H&T every time I get in a 911. I even do it in Karen’s ’85 Land Cruiser with my size 12. My son Chris has learned to do it very well even with his size 16s, although we had to rearrange the pedals in a Formula Mazda.


Wayne, sundypunch,

Right on. The critical issue is best possible control of the brakes. Engine revs, while important, are not the main concern.

I prefer the stock pedal position and the rubber pads.


OK, let’s talk about the purpose of H&T in a 911.
The original purpose of H&T dates back to pre-war (that is WW-II for you kids) non-syncro race cars, trucks, and everything else. The idea is to match the RPM of the gears so the engagement dogs won’t crash. This is usually known as a “double-clutch down-shift” and “matching the gears” on up-shift.
Synchronizers were invented to eliminate this requirement.

In our 911s there are several useful purposes to proper H&T operation.
The first might be to match the engine revs to the speed of the car so as to not load the clutch. This prevents clutch wear – big time. This is also desirable on downshifts to not use the engine inertia to decelerate the car because it can cause oversteer. Generally not necessary on up-shifts if your timing is proper.
To every rule there are exceptions. At an auto-X or in a very slow turn on a track you can use the inertia of the engine to induce significant trailing throttle oversteer going into a corner. The cost is wear on the clutch and stress on the drivetrain but to a racing advantage.

The next reason is to reduce wear on the syncros. If done correctly, a proper double-clutch down-shift does minimal wear on the syncros and the dogs slide into engagement without a “click.” Again, not necessary on up-shift, proper timing does it all. When you hear actors blipping the throttle on up-shift; that’s all Hollywood.

Some drivers sequentially go down thru the gears, say 5-4-3, and then get on power. I feel that is a waste of time, a distraction, and unnecessary wear on transmission parts. I prefer to pay attention to maximizing the breaking and only then the gear change toward the end.

Remember, there are many things happening:
Positioning the 911 on the track.
The transition from full-throttle acceleration to maximum breaking.
The weight transfer from the rear to the front.
The turning into a corner.
The lateral weight transfer.
The transition to a lower gear (smooth H&T double-clutch down-shift to a lower gear.)
The appropriate application of power.
Proper up-shifts.
All of these things need to happen timed properly in sequence with many overlapping.
Then there is the issue of staying in control and on the track.
Oh yes, your competitors are also important.


Proper shoes for YOU are important.


Best,
Grady

[Zeke]

I did some work on my throttle linkage to keep the MFI part from rubbing and lost a little height on the gas pedal. When at the track the other day, I had to use the literal H-T rather than the ball of foot rollover. Not as accurate for me, but it works. I will be bringing up the gas pedal or adding one of those plates. When it's all adjusted, it's just a matter of foot dexterity. Is that pedeterity?

As Grady says, it's more than possible to skip a gear (or 2) when downshifting, but this takes some skill. Personally, I think w/o a double clutch DS, it causes as much wear on synchros as is saved by skipping a gear. I can't find the time on the track to double clutch, but I'm not a pro driver. He is.

[Grady Clay]

Milt,

You could politely replace the word “is” with “retired” or “former.” Some others use “lame, has-been, worthless, over-the-hill, etc.” No one accused me of being “slow or unknowledgeable.” When I was hired to drive other’s expensive race cars, I was always competitive and brought them back in one piece.

I’ll do what little I can to help raise the next generation of knowledgeable Porsche racers and tuners. I think this forum has some.

Best,
Grady