~ WEVO - lineup, availability, pricing? ~

[wevoid]

Originally posted by Chuck Moreland
Not to take anything away from Hayden, he has developed an attractive product which he did show me at Autofest. I'm sure there are some customers interested in a $900+ spring plate bearing solution, just as PolyBronze appeals to a segment that wants a $295 spring plate bearing solution. And there is yet another group that will continue to buy polyurethane bushings no matter what.

Clearly different products can peacefully co-exist in the market.

Just so there is no confusion in terms of relative pricing, the WEVO SPS (Spring Plate System) is a full system. The $900 price tag will supply you with the Spring Plate Bearings AND the adjustable spring plates - another $350 worth of components if you buy them from another vendor.

So the gap from Chuck's very fine product - fully installed - up to our WEVO SPS solution is not as dramatic as it seems. It is however a gap, one that is significant enough that buyers should choose based on the intended use of the car and their budget.

With small markets available at every level we are very mindful that products can co-exist peacefully - although it requires respect and cooperation between the designers and manufacturing vendors.

I will be installing either Chuck's polybronze front bearings, or Mikes needle bearings on my own car, I see no space for another solution or vendor in that particular area.

Regards

Hayden

[wevoid]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
I understand re stiction. But is this a theoretical benefit? Or large enough to be noticed? or signifcant?

Randy,

When we installed the first set of proto components on a car, it was me who drove the car into the shop and then hours later drove it away.

I was astonished by two factors among others.

I should start by saying my orange car (the first test vehicle) has 21/ 27 T-bars, 22 Anti Roll Bars, on the street runs 195/65 fronts, 205/60 rears Continentals, a nice riding tire. I have Bilstein Sports on the front and KONI gas on the rear, rear rebound set on the "0" (softest) posn.

1) We set the spring plates by angle, same as prior to removing the old Sway-A-Way parts, that had the red poly bushes - yes they squeeked and groaned.
With the same relaxed spring plate angle - the rear ride height was 10mm higher when we put the car on the set-up pad.
This indicated that the stiction in the old bushes was capable of constraining the suspension 10mm from it's relaxed position.

2) The test ride was a revelation, it felt like I had replaced the T-bars with softer units, taller tires, softer dampers and added sound insulation to the car.
I actually found myself looking for road features to drive over and gauge the feedback.
The suspension was quieter (no squeeking) and definitely more compliant.
The car has since been track tested by both novice and expert drivers, but I am yet to personally track test the car.
The novice driver enjoyed more speed and predictability and the expert driver admired the predictability. Having said that I have no way to aportion the fine balance of the car to the WEVO SPS as the car was pretty good before and the novice driver is on the steep part of the confidence curve.

We are continuing to test the parts and monitor the bearings for wear.

As much as the advantage would appear to be theoretical, I have experienced the improvement in a road car and was sufficiently impressed to allocate funds to productionize the design.

Our display at the GAF was configured so that visitors could lift the trailing arm and feel the virtually friction free nature of the installation. We had a steady stream of industry experts coming by to check that out which was a pleasure for us.

Regards

Hayden

[wevoid]

Originally posted by jpahemi
Aside from the stiction, wouldn't the roller bearing pivot yield a more precise geometry during braking, cornering or accelerating? Unless your rubber bushings are brand new, there's no way they could be as precise as the WEVO units.
There would be a definate difference on the street.
IMHO, these babies are worth the price.

Hayden:
Is there a possibility of this technology for the front?
Regards,
J.P.

JP

The factory did use similar technology for the 934. The 934 was homologated with torsion bars, therefore it was required to race with them. This precluded the use of the yet-to-come, 935 spring plates.

The 934 ran with a small rear torion bar plus the coil-over spring damper unit, effectively 2 road spring mediums. The issue of wheel location, toe change due to acceleration (prodigious acceleration!) was effected with a bearing solution on the spring plates. Our components are not actually visually similar, but conceptually yes.

In terms of wheel location, I doubt the WEVO SPS has a significant advantage over Chuck's Poly Bronze bush, or a well installed poly bush. I believe the advantage will be in terms of friction. The dynamic nature of the spring plate design makes it difficult to measure the friction under use conditions.

Our product also included some good installation and set-up features that are missing from existing spring plate designs.

Regards

Hayden

[wevoid]

Originally posted by Steve@Rennsport


The Wevo stuff will be great for race cars where they get regular service and maintenance.

Steve,

The WEVO SPS uses all sealed bearings, the ball bearing is pre-lubricated and the needle roller is lubricated during install - then residing behind a lip seal.

Our expectation is that this assembly is maintenence free, time and testing will determine if we are right.

Regards

Hayden

[Steve@Rennsport]

Hi Hayden:

I'll "second" your observations about replacing the Weltmeister bushings with needle/roller bearings or monoballs. The ride is FAR more compliant. The difference is really amazing.

LOL,...I guess I'll have to try a set of yours when they are ready. Please keep me posted on the progress. My only concern was about dirt contamination and if the bearings are well sealed, hopefully that would do the trick.

[wevoid]

Originally posted by RallyJon
So the 1970s 911 turbo caliper four-piece design is the only one that can fit under a 15" Fuchs? I guess it does appear to hug the rotor more closely than modern designs. Is it really as rigid, though?

There are so many companies that make low profile calipers nowadays: Hi-spec fits a 280mm rotor and 4-pot caliper under a 13" Caterham rim for example.

Still, you have to appreciate the retro syle, if that's your priority and you're willing to pay for it.

RallyJon,

Unless you add the 2 degrees of freedom - being;

1) Wheel offset
2) Caliper adapter

Your first comment is practically correct.

The modern low profile calipers require design freedom over adjacent components to locate them on the upright and package them to full advantage. I can be certain that the exercise to put 280mm brake rotors in a 13" wheel included significant design freedoms - beyond what we were allowed oursleves.

We have tackled the issue of rigidity by using steel in the area where a high modulus material will be of greatest benefit, the 4 piece design allows this, even if more costly and in other ways inferior over a single piece caliper.

The retro look is in part a legacy of this and in part our deliberate choice to recognize the nature of our prime market.

We respect that this product could not satisfy all the discerning buyers, but we see a path to satisfy many of the discerning buyers in the market sector we identified for the product.

Regards

Hayden

[wevoid]

Originally posted by jpachard
Hayden, That makes sense. I currently run the 930 calipers and everyone knows how much they cost now. Rebuilding them is another story. Are you machining them from billet? Best of luck with them, I know how hard it is to get things off the ground, I'm currently in the same position as far as my products go.

Cheers, James

James,

The piston bodies are from billet and the fists are investment cast stainless steel.

Regards

Hayden

[J P Stein]

My 914 is set up moderately stiff .....21mm T bars & 225 lb springs f/r (2200lb car). Our AX venue is VERY rough which requires good suspension compliance. The road in front of my house is even worse.

I made the *mistake* of changing 2 things in the suspension at once this last winter...Meuller bearings & revlaved Bilsteins. One pass down that damn road was a revelation.
The ride, while not plush, was no longer jiggily, hopping from pillar to post, the suspension followed the bumps amazingly well. Using last years tires, the AX times dropped about 2 sec in relation to the field.

[jpahemi]

Hayden:
Can you post pics of your calipers mounted or unmounted? Are they differential bore? I love the retaining bar; that should address the "clam shell" effect quite nicely.
I'd love to see a WEVO front A-arm version of the SPS. I know there's another product on the market for this, but WEVO has a diiferent execution with their products.
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Never mind the question regarding the front; I just saw your reply in a previous thread.

[wevoid]

jpahemi,

There are several photos already posted within this thread? Do these show what you would like to see?

Regards

Hayden

[jpahemi]

Hayden:
I'd like to see the mounting on the rear trailing arm, if possible.
J.P.

[wevoid]

J.P.

The rear mounting uses the stock O.E. SC mount bolts and the acces to the lower bolt has been designed to allow a clear shot with a low profile socket. This will permit correct torque setting on the bolt - which is difficult with the modified 930 calipers mounted in the same location.

per your previous question, the pistons are staggered bore, one of the features absent on the 930 calipers.

Regards

Hayden

[jpahemi]

Hayden:
WOW!! No caliper grinding, no spacers, perfect clearence; please pull the trigger on production. Please. If not would you sell the prototypes? Rotors and hats are included in price, yes?
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Do you have the same shot for the front mounting?

[wevoid]

J.P.

I dont have a similar photo for the front, I will take something next week and post it here.

The price would be for the kit including rotors etc.

Parts not included would be 23mm master cylinder to suit your chassis and brake pads to suit your application.

Regards

Hayden

[armandodiaz]

Will you also have slotted rotor options? Are the fronts floating?

[Randy Webb]

Hayden, Steve -- Thx for your posts. I think I will not postpone a repaint, but I will be saving my pennies for botht the springplates & brakes. It is interesting to hear that the shocks don't damp out all subj. feelings from stiction. I'd have thought otherwise.

I hope Wevo will do something aobut those heavy steel front A-arms -- something for road cars that is (I'm aware of erp's 935 style front end).

[wevoid]

Originally posted by armandodiaz
Will you also have slotted rotor options? Are the fronts floating?

We have not considered options for rotors beyond the basic architecture. If the kit goes to production, we will consider a number of variations.

The fronts we are testing are floating, the rears we are testing are stock Zimmermann 930 rotors.

The fronts are made by DBA Disc Brake Australia, they feature their innovative "Kangaroo Paw" venting that is claimed to be more efficient than curved vanes.
DBA have been extremely cooperative in supplying engineering and technical support for our unique rotor requirement.

Regards

Hayden

[GeorgeK]

Hayden,
Looks great. I especially like the brake setup. 2 questions though:
What bias will the setup have if fitted to a (for a common instance) 1980 911SC, with a 23 mm master cylinder? will it retain the same bias that the 1980 SC has with it standard factory setup? I feel it is important.
Do you plan on any form of homologation? I am asking because in Europe (and Switzerland in my case) the setuip will be a black flag at any periodical test without proper homologation (TUV or equivalent).
Regards, George

[wevoid]

George,

Thanks for the feedback.

In terms of brake bias, there are too many factors to have a positive answer at this point. As you are aware, choices outside the braking system such as tire size, wheel width, wheel rates, vehicle load and others can all affect brake bias.

Mathematically we have gone in this direction -

Our package has a hydraulic bias 6.4% forwards compared to the O.E. 930 package.

Our package has a friction radius bias 4.2% forwards compared to the O.E. 930 package.

Our package has pad area delta biased 27% rearwards compared to the O.E. 1980 SC package.

When we test the package - road testing commences September 29th, we will have a more clear answer.

My primary goal was to achieve a bias shifted forwards over the O.E. 930 package. This is the closest in configuration and given any direction to shift the bias - this is the safest and most likely to achieve higher braking performance on the types of cars that will install these parts.

We have not researched the aspects of Homologation, if it is within our means then I would not discount tackling the process. I would be interested to understand the mechanism - can you direct me to any sites that cover the basics ?

Regards

Hayden

[GeorgeK]

Hi Hayden,
Thanks for the info.
IMO, altering the bias in favor of the front is not too good. At lower speeds the 930 setup gives too much braking force to the front. When designed, for the 930, its main goal was repetitive decelerations from warp speed on german highways, were the weight transfer to the front is important. This results in a less than optimal braking at lower speeds such as when entering a hairpin turn (we have a lot of these in Switzerland...). In my area, every 930 equipped car has to be worked on to diminish this tendency. We usually get around that by fitting different friction pads to the front and rear. So a more to the front oriented bias is not wise IMO.
As for homologation, the best organism in Europe is the Tüv. See: http://www.de.tuv.com/en/index.php
For info. Here in Switzerland, nothing passes any official inspection without being homologated. The Tüv is the largest single step you can pass to have it homologated in Europe. From there it all gets easier for the potential buyer (every mod should be inscribed in the car's papers, but we get around that when fitting different calipers, as we use Porsche calipers, and the officials here do not know anything about calipers, and as long as it says Porsche, they leave it at that).