3.2 to 3.5 - Part II

[efhughes3]

Nice!!

[jpahemi]

Ok, what's happening to the project?? Too long without news or pics.
J.P.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
Ok, what's happening to the project?? Too long without news or pics.
J.P.

What's the old saying, "all good things to those that wait" or something to that effect? Believe me J.P., we are getting so close that I can almost hear the motor fired up in my sleep.

I really have to take a step back sometimes and resist the urge to take shortcuts (Steve certainly helps in this regard) just to get the motor back in the chassis quicker.

Tonight we did a few things, but everything is detailed oriented and just takes time. The outer sheet metal was fitted and the new O2 sensor installed on the left header collector.

We then installed the top plug wires for cylinders 1-3 because they were the easiest and don't require any drilling of the sheet metal or special routing.

Next Steve drilled 3 holes into the right side sheet metal and 3 holes into the left side sheet metal for the lower wires on each side to feed through. I went to Lowe's over the weekend and picked up some 5/8" OD x 3/8" ID rubber grommets to make it look nice. We also used Steve's deburring tool to smooth out the circles after drilling. Here is a pic after the handiwork:



Ralph

[Carrera3.5L]

For some reason, my computer went psycho so I lost half of the above post. Probably operator error!

Anyway, we then fitted the lower plug wires for cylinders 1-3 and secured them with the RSR hold-down clips. These clips are probably not needed as this is not a race engine and I don't expect these Magnecor connectors to pop off but I figure the RSR clips definitely add to the "coolness" factor if nothing else. Here is a pic:



Notice in the above pic that the boots are off where they mount to the distributors. We needed to remove them to feed the wire through the sheet metal holes. Don't tell Magnecor!

Since I wanted to wait until the wires were all installed before sorting out the separators and final routing, we temporarily used o-rings to keep the wires together.



This kind of reminded Steve of when he was building RSR motors, as they used a bracket with a grommet similar in function to the temporary o-rings fitted to hold the wires together. Not quite the same thing though...

Here is a pic of the distributors with all the wires connected. Those of you with Magnecor wires (or other large diameter wires) can attest to what a PITA they are to snap down on the distributor caps. We had to do some creative juggling to get everything to line up.



All the wires on the right bank are also mounted but not yet routed in a beautiful and efficient manner. Here is a pic at the end of the night.



Still waiting for Kerry Morse to send me the fiberglass RSR left-side heater block off. He assured me at California Speedway at the Grand-Am race and at Andial last Friday that it was almost ready to go. I hope so, because the motor is almost ready to go!

Ralph

[tycharle964]

that engine is awesome, I am about to bust a nut.

thanks so much for the photos, I wish our shop could be that clean when we do rebuilds

again amazing, and appreciate you keeping us informed, you are lucky to have your friends

[tycharle964]

oh and what are those rubber covered handle looking things attached with one of the bolts on the "turbo" lower valve covers?

thanks

tyler

*****nevermind, they hold on the twin plugs

[jpahemi]

I just want to cry, it's so beautiful. No flashy colors(not that there's anything wrong with that), just an engine that screams class.
Ralph, does the dual dizzy fit neatly into the hole left by the heater down tube?
'Getting a little ahead of myself; during break in will the engine be redlined? I've read different schools of thought regarding this. One camp states reving motor to redline seals rings better, others say a progressive rpm increase is correct.
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Did you redo the injector wire harness, it looks very clean, mine is faded grey/yellow.

[Carrera3.5L]

You guys crack me up! It's just a motor for God's sake! I think it looks pretty good as well but in due time it will get dirty (unless I fly J.P. out with his suitcase full of toothbrushes) from use. This is a daily driver, not a garage queen. Contrary to many, my 911 actually sees rain (when it does rain in SoCal). I will do my best to maintain it, but am not going to spend my entire weekends cleaning it. Okay, maybe I will. The motor will see approx. 8K per year.

J.P., you do have a sharp eye. Yes, the distributor fits no problem and yes there is now a hole in the sheet metal from where the heater tube used to be. I have two options: leave it alone and potentially have road grime cake the bottom of the distributor as time passes or make a plate to cover the hole in the sheet metal.

I am not a fan of running any new engine to redline to seal the rings, I don't anticipate going over 5,000 rpm intentionally. I tell you, it's going to be tempting though but will have to try and keep my foot out of it. Maybe I should let my wife drive it during the break-in???

Will try and put 1,000 miles on as quickly as possible before doing the power runs on the dyno. Steve Wong and I will hook up just before and he will optimize the WOT and part throttle fuel and ignition curves by using his laptop and the LM-1. A few hours of road testing with Steve Wong in the passenger seat (and a few hours sitting in the bar afterward) and we should be ready for some dyno time. But, as you noted, we are getting ahead of ourselves. Steve Becker is going to have his 3.4L twin-plug optimized by Steve as well and we will dyno our cars together and see what kind of differences there are. We are pretty similar other then displacement (3.4 vs. 3.5) and cam choice (964 vs. 20/21). Should make for an interesting comparison, and hopefully Steve's doesn't make more power! I'll know who to blame.

Nope, the original harness, simply sprayed some brake clean on a lint free towel and wiped down the injector harness' and main wiring harness to remove the grime. Not concours but the camera makes it look good.

Ralph

[jpahemi]

"It's just a motor.....", maybe if it had a Briggs and Stratton tag on it. This has been an extension of your soul, let's see if you call it just a motor when it fires up for the first time. Hmmm.
Ciao,
J.P.
Ps. To reduce hole size, you could weld a small half moon piece with the same radius as the duct hole. Another option could be a bowl shaped piece.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
"It's just a motor.....", maybe if it had a Briggs and Stratton tag on it. This has been an extension of your soul, let's see if you call it just a motor when it fires up for the first time. Hmmm.
Ciao,
J.P.

My ultimate motor would be a 3.5L or 3.6L twin-plug with slide valves, in short a BIG RSR motor with plenty of top end power and manageable bottom and mid-range. I've been fortunate to drive one (albeit for a very short time) when Andial built a street car for a customer in Mexico City and that motor could be exchanged for my soul! The sounds and throttle response makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. THAT motor would not get A/C hooked up to it!

Back to the real world...

Ralph

[mjshira]

Very cool engine

[Randy Webb]

"or make a plate to cover the hole in the sheet metal."

jphemi said a bowl shaped piece - I agree. Mine sticks down enough so that a flat peice will not fit in the hole. The hole is an issue and not just for grime - it lets hot muffler heated air up into the engine area. Anybody want to make a few of these concave fill pieces and sell them? I'd buy.

I'd post a pic of the hole where my dual dist. sticks down but the BBS is acting so badly I've given up on posting pics.

[jpahemi]

I elect John Walker for the fabrication, question is will he accept the nomination??
Regards,
J.P.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
"or make a plate to cover the hole in the sheet metal."

jphemi said a bowl shaped piece - I agree. Mine sticks down enough so that a flat peice will not fit in the hole. The hole is an issue and not just for grime - it lets hot muffler heated air up into the engine area. Anybody want to make a few of these concave fill pieces and sell them? I'd buy.

I'd post a pic of the hole where my dual dist. sticks down but the BBS is acting so badly I've given up on posting pics.

Haven't looked at it close enough yet to see if a flat plate or concave bowl piece will be necessary. If there are enough guys interested I am sure Steve would have no problem knocking out a few.

Well, I went to 3 different auto parts stores today to find some decent wire separators or looms and all I found was junk IMO. Everything from billet aluminum 4-hole pieces for V8's to every color under the rainbow plastic crap for the Honda guys I presume. Nothing I saw looked all that impressive. So, in the interim, I am going to use simple ty-wraps to hold the wires together until I find a better solution. If I had 7mm wires, it wouldn't be as big a problem but with the 8.5mm wires it is a little more difficult. Magnecor said the silicone jacket is pretty darn flexible and I can get away with using 7mm units as long as they aren't clamped down hard but I don't think that would look good either. I found some nice looking pieces from Nology but am not sure if they have something compatible since all their wires are WAY oversize (10mm or larger???).

So, here is the motor as the wires will probably run initially. I can play with this more when I find something I really like.








The only other thing we did tonight (actually Steve did and I watched) was bore out the throttle body. Steve put the throttle body is his lathe and cut material in .010" increments. Here is a pic (albeit blurry):




I measured the stock butterfly diameter to be 62.99mm and the "Becker" butterfly at 66.77mm. Thus, the difference is 3.78mm larger. Not sure if this will gain any more power on the dyno, but the increased airflow can't hurt. Stock on left and Steve's on the right:




Here is the throttle body after spending some time in the lathe:



Steve can also perform this service as well to interested parties. Since he doesn't have any "cores" ready to go he would need your actual throttle body to perform the surgery.

The throttle body shaft also has to be filed down slightly to accept the "Becker" butterfly but not a big deal and took about 30 seconds.

Last pic (which isn't much different from some of the other pics the last few days):



For some of you that maybe thinking to yourselves "man, these guys sure are slow, this shouldn't take so long" bear in mind that since last week we are spending 1-1.5 hours a night with no weekend work and that is it. Obviously, not a whole lot gets done in such a short timeframe. This is strictly my fault, due to my work and family schedule and the insistence that I both help with the build and stop and take pictures and document everything. If Steve were left on his own, this motor would have been in the car a couple of weeks ago and you guys would be getting closer to seeing dyno numbers rather then the finer points of plug wire routing. Thanks for your continued patience.

Ralph

[Craig 930 RS]

Took us 5 weeks to do my engine partial build/trans rebuild/regear & install - working about 2-3 hours a day.

[Randy Webb]

YOu have just described the state of the auto aftermarket. The odl 50's Detroit iron hotrod guys did stuff a lot better. There is a series of posts or even a full thread on wire holders/keepers w/in the last on this board. I'll bet you can modify some stock Porsche stuff to work well and look good.

Let me add to the chorus that you have a very pretty engine there.

"man, these guys sure are slow, this shouldn't take so long". Actually, what I was thinking was "man, these guys sure are fast, this shouldn't have taken me so long" when I did a lot of the same stuff.

[jpahemi]

Ralph:
How did you guys adjust the TPS sensor on the throttle body? Does it come off easily?
Regards,
J.P.

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
Ralph, does the dual dizzy fit neatly into the hole left by the heater down tube?

As J.P. and Randy stated, with the removal of the heater blower tube leaves a hole in the sheet metal. Here is a pic looking up from the bottom of the motor:



The distributor clears the sheet metal but just barely. Tomorrow night Steve will fabricate a flat piece with a small dimple on the distributor end to solve this issue. With the motor in the car, you really can't see it unless you are intentionally looking for it. My car isn't going to be entered in any concours events, so not a big deal for me.

This problem is because of the removal of the heater blower tube due to running headers. Don't kid yourself, if you think that you can circumvent this by retaining the heater blower tube you will have a different problem to overcome, namely the 964/993 distributor body/caps will hit the tube itself. What Andial does is try and gently heat the plastic tube and "reform" it slightly so the distributor has clearance but if that doesn't work they simply cut a small hole in the tube and attach a dimpled piece to get the clearance. One way or another, using this distributor on a 3.2L Carrera creates this dilemna.

I also found the wire separators that I would like to use. They are from Nology and are a nice looking black nylon that clamp down using small set screws. The only problem is that they are designed for 10mm wire and thus are way too big for my Magnecor 8.5mm wires. I know, I tried one tonight. The ty-wraps work better for right now. I will try Nology again in the morning to see if they make a smaller diameter version but according to their catalog I have it doesn't appear to be. Perhaps they can point me in the right direction or better yet make me some custom units for the 8.5mm wires...

We installed the bored out throttle body on the motor tonight along with all the ancillary pieces. Steve even had a few problems figuring out where everything had to go so he popped his deck lid and looked at his motor. The airbox assembly was also fitted, essentially completing the rebuild!

J.P., your question with how to remove the TPS puzzled me, as it is simply two small screws. Piece of cake. Then I realized that you are trying to pull it off with the motor in the car which is a whole different ballgame. Here is a pic of the front of the TPS:



and one of the rear (sorry for the fuzziness):



The top screw is easy to access with the motor in the car and everything connected. The bottom screw is something different as it is buried underneath and not even visibile if the motor is in the car. You would have to use a very small screwdriver for the bottom screw as a long handle version would bump against the plenum. IMO Porsche should have used allen bolts for this because at least you can feel around and get it started coming in from an angle.

I think the easiest way to remove it in the car is either remove the entire airbox/air flow meter assembly or remove the throttle body by removing the 4 bolts that secure it.

The TPS does have an adjustment range and that will be performed when the motor is installed back at Vision Motorsports. Likewise, the idle screw for the throttle body was installed tight and then just barely backed off. Don't want it to idle at 7,000 rpm right when it is started!!! The appropriate adjustment will be made when the motor is started and running.

Well, the motor is more or less complete. The only thing left is the plate for the heater blower tube hole in the sheet metal and the, you guessed it, left-side heater block-off piece from Kerry Morse.

Here are the completed pics (minus the two things mentioned above):










Finally, a picture of Herr Becker with his latest creation. Sure it will make about 500 hp less then most of the engines he built, but what the heck, it gave him something to do. I can take satisfaction as well, I did my share on this motor as well. With all of the proper tools, I feel very confident that I could build the long block again if I needed to. Attaching all of the minute brackets, switches, hoses, clips, etc? Well, that is what a digital camera is for.



We just missed the 2 month anniversary (Monday). The motor was baseline dynoed on 09/08 and pulled right afterward and will go back in early next week. Yes J.P., now I am getting excited.

Well, I did one thread on pulling the motor and tearing it down and now this thread with the rebuild portion. Should I start a 3rd thread for putting the motor back in and getting it running or just keep building on this one??? What is the protocol?

Ralph

[jpahemi]

Ralph:
Did you use a master cylinder fitting on the shroud to run the air vent line to the dizzy?
J.P.
Ps. Definately butterfly time!

[Randy Webb]

Here's something to take a look at:

3 wire holder : 911 609 591 00
2 wire holder : 911 609 593 00

pic at:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/187838-john-walker-modified-duct-post1566017.html#post1566017

They might fit on the Nology things you found. BTW, can you post a pic of those?