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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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3.2 to 3.5 - Part II
Hi Guys,
Been a few weeks (see different thread for teardown info), but the 3.5 is finally getting screwed back together. Got the boattailed and shuffle pinned case back from Ollie's as well as the magnafluxed and micropolished crank. Rods were reconditioned and balanced as well and everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) has been thoroughly cleaned! Motor will be a black & silver combination thanks to powdercoating and fuel lines are now braided stainless hose rather than old, cracked rubber. Outer fastening hardware has all been cadmium plated as well. No pics available yet, but here are a couple of shots of the 1 5/8" headers by George Narbel that I will be using in an attempt to get to 240 rwhp.   Once the motor has been broken in, will try and dyno the stock heat exchangers with Dansk pre-muffler and 1 in 2 out stainless muffler w/ 84mm tips and then swap over to the headers and Dansk 2 in 2 out stainless muffler also with 84mm tips for a comparison. Even though the results may be a bit off since the motor is a built 3.5 versus a relatively stock 3.2, it should give some sort of indication how restrictive the stock routed exhaust is versus headers. One more teaser image:  Twin-plug 3.2L head with "cleaned" up intake ports. New intake valves and all new guides. Would like to post more, but am under a kind of "gag order" with European Car Magazine. Wrote and submitted part 1, hopefully the readership will like it. The non-Porsche reader is going to snicker about the dollars spent versus the gains realized though. $5,000 put into a VW 1.8T will easily get you to 300 bhp. Oh well. Ralph Last edited by Carrera3.5L; 10-14-2004 at 07:35 PM.. |
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10-12-2004, 09:26 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
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VERY NICE!!! Keep us posted on Dyno results
 "$5,000 put into a VW 1.8T will easily get you to 300 bhp. Oh well." $5000 put onto the stock 3.2 would have easily gotten you to 400bhp @ 0.7bar, but hey, not all of us are forced induction fans 
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Merv '89 911 Turbo Cab Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
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10-12-2004, 09:35 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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With Mahle P's and C's and a bunch of machine work, the first $5,000 has long come and gone.  In fact, $10,000 has also come and gone. Thank god for free labor! Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 06:59 AM
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Friends of Warren
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 3,133
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I am looking into "upgrading" my stock 3.2L. I am willing to budget 20-23k. What is best route? Am I unrealistic if my target is 260 rwhp?
Is it easier to drop a Varioram in the car? I will fully pay for labor.... |
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10-13-2004, 07:24 AM
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911Teo - You could have a very nice 993 engine installed for that budget (less actually).
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10-13-2004, 07:29 AM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
A slightly modified 993 Varioram motor that is perfectly suitable for street use should get you to 260 rwhp with no problem. If your 3.2L is in good shape, you can deduct some money off the sticker shock by selling the 3.2L motor. In my case, I wanted a freshly rebuilt motor rather then rolling the dice on a transplant and finding out something was wrong internally. Since the guides on my 3.2L were worn, my motor would be worth much less on the open market and I don't have the conscience for selling it to somebody without telling them of the problem. Also wanted the originality of my engine case and other then the 993 distributor it will look much like the original 3.2L, just prettier! Will still pass CA emissions as well by removing the headers and reinserting the standard exhaust. I estimate the motor I am building to be in the 15K range if labor is included, but bear in mind that you can still do this for cheaper then what mine is costing. The price quoted includes many ancillary pieces such as new head temp sensor, reference mark sensors, 02 sensor, motor mounts, fuel line replacements, muffler straps, starter ring gear, etc, etc that can be reused in many instances. This would knock down $1-$2K off my rebuild. Since everything is easily accessible with the motor out, I have caught the proverbial "for $100 more" syndrome. It all depends on what your goals for the car are. If you have 20-23K to budget, I would look at a 3.6 Varioram as a serious option although Merv is going to try and convince you otherwise.  Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 08:34 AM
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Friends of Warren
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 3,133
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I was thinking of 3.7, RSR cams, Pistons, titanium valves etc. I am an illiterate at this point but have just bought BA's and Wayne's books on the 911 engine....
I wanna keep it NA.... I know i could bolt a turbo on it and easily get 400hp... My 3.2 has 125k on it... so not sure how much I could get for it... |
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10-13-2004, 08:40 AM
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Registered
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Plymouth, MI
Posts: 96
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What kind of money have you put into machine work on this engine. I have a 3.2L core engine and good 964 3.6L crank that I have been contemplating a 3.5L of my own. I would use JE pistons with my KS cylinders overbored and Pauter rods.
My end result would be different, as I am planning an Autorotor 1.5L supercharger with Ford EEC-V engine management (cheap parts and fully controllable with SCT Pro Racer engine software ($800). My problem is understanding the true machine shop costs for block prep, head work, crank upgrades, etc..
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1985 Carrera - Sold 2005 Mountaineer V8 1999 Ranger 4-Door AWD - 351W V8 w/ custom water intercooled Kenne Bell 2.4L supercharger (Your average 600HP Ranger) |
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10-13-2004, 09:13 AM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
Let's just say alot for machine work. Again, some of these mods can be bypassed if a strict budget must be adhered to. $700 to: disassemble heads bead blast heads polish intake ports replace 12 guides replace/regrind valves grind valve seats valve job machine spring seats for AASCO springs set valve spring height reassemble heads $290 to twin-plug heads and valve covers $225 to surface and bevel heads for 100mm bore $100 to hot tank case, r&r oil galleys and clean oil squirters $40 to remove old head studs $170 to machine engine case spigots for 100mm bore $200 to boattail engine case $295 to shuffle pin engine case $215 to recondition rocker arms and polish shafts $80 to moon cylinders $60 to magnaflux and micropolish crank $150 to recondition connecting rods $150 to balance engine complete $50 to surface 240mm G50 flywheel It all adds up in a hurry, doesn't it? Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 09:40 AM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Ti valves are expensive and overkill for street use. What would you be using the motor for? Street, race or some combination thereof? Don't know the going price for used 3.2L's, but would guess it would fetch at least 5K if in good condition. Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 09:45 AM
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Registered
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Plymouth, MI
Posts: 96
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Quote:
As for the pistons and rods, I will probably keep with the over bored 3.2L jugs and JE pistons, as I need custom low compression pistons anyhow and could avoid the spigot bore and associated issues. 2mm bore just isn't worth it when I plan to force feed the engine anyhow! Pauter rods will replace the stock rods for a more comfortable feeling when I step into it! Thanks for the info it was great. Did you have everything done at Ollies?
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1985 Carrera - Sold 2005 Mountaineer V8 1999 Ranger 4-Door AWD - 351W V8 w/ custom water intercooled Kenne Bell 2.4L supercharger (Your average 600HP Ranger) |
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10-13-2004, 03:45 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
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Sorry Carrera3.5L, your engine is VERY sweet, I'm not denying that at all. I'm just a forced induction JUNKY, so don't mind my comments
 Having said that, 911teo, for much less than your budget, you can easily Twin Turbo that sucker for over 650+HP using 97mm, 98mm or 100mm P&C's and lag would hardly be noticable. Just ask "Mike the mechanic". He's done such a conversion for significantly less that what your budgeting Again, this is just the view from a boost Junky
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Merv '89 911 Turbo Cab Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
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10-13-2004, 04:19 PM
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Ralph,
when you talk RWHP what factor are you allowing for drive train loss. I had a 3.2 on MFI with RS cams that made 228RWHp and the motor wasn't twin plugged. One of the guys I race with has a 3.5 on aftermarket injection with GE 100 cams his motor is supposed to be making 280RWHp Michael 911 74 Modified 911 71 Stock |
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10-13-2004, 04:28 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
If the percentage is correct, 280 rwhp would be about 330 crank horsepower, which is probably consistent with the mods you describe. Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 06:46 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
Gotta make sure she'll live on 91 octane and pass CA emissions though. Would be tough to do easily with an aftermarket turbo package unless I found a smog station on the take.Yes, Ollie's did all of the machine work. What's the old saying, you have to pay if you want to play? I think the prices charged are reasonable, it just costs a boatload for everything. That's why I tried to spread everything out over the past 5 months, so it wouldn't hit me all at once. Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 06:55 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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The bottom end is together! 2 hours from start to finish tonight.
  Sorry, can't show the internals going together because of the "gag order". Everything went together perfectly thus far, case is sealed and case through-bolts torqued to 30 ft/lbs. Tomorrow night we'll install the ARP head studs, connecting rods with ARP bolts and maybe get to the 100mm piston and cylinders. I know some of you are thinking why didn't the rods get installed before the case was sealed? Answer is personal preference. Installing the rods before the case is sealed is obviously easier because you have no problem with space but with the case sealed you have to do it through the cylinder bore in the case which leaves less room to play with. My buddy Steve (formerly of PMNA) prefers to do it this way but says it really doesn't matter. Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 07:05 PM
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Registered
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
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Nice, did you upgrade the piston squirters as well? A common upgrade for high compression (or high boost) applications is to install 964/993 piston squirters which keeps the pistons cooler under load
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Merv '89 911 Turbo Cab Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
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10-13-2004, 07:52 PM
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Doesn't want/need a 3.6L
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Quote:
Ralph |
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10-13-2004, 08:22 PM
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Registered
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,563
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Ralph, if you had the case split already, it wouldn't have cost much more to upgrade the piston squirters as these are very cheap items.
Anyway, I think this upgrade is probably more suited to a big boost turbo application which results in a higher effective compression ratio under full boost, therefore higher piston temps. I think in NA trim, you'll be OK
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Merv '89 911 Turbo Cab Protomotive MAP ECU, Twin Plugged Heads, GT2-EVO CAMs, 3.3L fully finned P&C's, ARP fasteners, C2T head gaskets, Titanium Retainers, Turbo spec valves, springs & guides, 964 splash valves, GT35R BB turbo, GSF Stainless Headers, Magnaflow Exhaust, Full bay Intercooler, TiAL 46mm w/gate, TiAL 50mm BOV, Apexi AVC-R EBC, SPEC Stage3+ Clutch kit, Crane CDI Ignition
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10-13-2004, 08:26 PM
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Registered
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
Posts: 1,798
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Ralph:
Aside from the boat tail or possible crank mods, what could be so secret as not to show?? Regards, J.P. |
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10-13-2004, 10:20 PM
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1988 Porsche 911 3.5L Motronic Twin-Plug
911 3.8 "RS"
993 Cab
