3.2 to 3.5 - Part II
 

Hi Guys,

Been a few weeks (see different thread for teardown info), but the 3.5 is finally getting screwed back together. Got the boattailed and shuffle pinned case back from Ollie's as well as the magnafluxed and micropolished crank. Rods were reconditioned and balanced as well and everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) has been thoroughly cleaned! Motor will be a black & silver combination thanks to powdercoating and fuel lines are now braided stainless hose rather than old, cracked rubber. Outer fastening hardware has all been cadmium plated as well.

No pics available yet, but here are a couple of shots of the 1 5/8" headers by George Narbel that I will be using in an attempt to get to 240 rwhp.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097644201.jpg



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097644238.jpg


Once the motor has been broken in, will try and dyno the stock heat exchangers with Dansk pre-muffler and 1 in 2 out stainless muffler w/ 84mm tips and then swap over to the headers and Dansk 2 in 2 out stainless muffler also with 84mm tips for a comparison. Even though the results may be a bit off since the motor is a built 3.5 versus a relatively stock 3.2, it should give some sort of indication how restrictive the stock routed exhaust is versus headers.

One more teaser image:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097644548.jpg

Twin-plug 3.2L head with "cleaned" up intake ports. New intake valves and all new guides.

Would like to post more, but am under a kind of "gag order" with European Car Magazine. Wrote and submitted part 1, hopefully the readership will like it. The non-Porsche reader is going to snicker about the dollars spent versus the gains realized though. $5,000 put into a VW 1.8T will easily get you to 300 bhp. Oh well.

Ralph

VERY NICE!!! Keep us posted on Dyno results :cool:

"$5,000 put into a VW 1.8T will easily get you to 300 bhp. Oh well."

$5000 put onto the stock 3.2 would have easily gotten you to 400bhp @ 0.7bar, but hey, not all of us are forced induction fans :)

Merv, I just knew this was going to be your response about 5 minutes after posting.:)

With Mahle P's and C's and a bunch of machine work, the first $5,000 has long come and gone.:( In fact, $10,000 has also come and gone.:eek:

Thank god for free labor!

Ralph

I am looking into "upgrading" my stock 3.2L. I am willing to budget 20-23k. What is best route? Am I unrealistic if my target is 260 rwhp?
Is it easier to drop a Varioram in the car?
I will fully pay for labor....

911Teo - You could have a very nice 993 engine installed for that budget (less actually).

260 rwhp is very, very optimistic (re: not bloody likely) for a 3.4L or 3.5L twin-plug onversion still using the standard Motronic injection and cams running on pump gas. Changing to aftermarket engine management, further increasing the compression ratio and using suitable cams among other bits would get you there with little difficulty. 300+ rwhp is realistic for a fully race prepped 3.4L or 3.5L.

A slightly modified 993 Varioram motor that is perfectly suitable for street use should get you to 260 rwhp with no problem. If your 3.2L is in good shape, you can deduct some money off the sticker shock by selling the 3.2L motor.

In my case, I wanted a freshly rebuilt motor rather then rolling the dice on a transplant and finding out something was wrong internally. Since the guides on my 3.2L were worn, my motor would be worth much less on the open market and I don't have the conscience for selling it to somebody without telling them of the problem. Also wanted the originality of my engine case and other then the 993 distributor it will look much like the original 3.2L, just prettier! Will still pass CA emissions as well by removing the headers and reinserting the standard exhaust.

I estimate the motor I am building to be in the 15K range if labor is included, but bear in mind that you can still do this for cheaper then what mine is costing. The price quoted includes many ancillary pieces such as new head temp sensor, reference mark sensors, 02 sensor, motor mounts, fuel line replacements, muffler straps, starter ring gear, etc, etc that can be reused in many instances. This would knock down $1-$2K off my rebuild. Since everything is easily accessible with the motor out, I have caught the proverbial "for $100 more" syndrome.

It all depends on what your goals for the car are. If you have 20-23K to budget, I would look at a 3.6 Varioram as a serious option although Merv is going to try and convince you otherwise.:D

Ralph

I was thinking of 3.7, RSR cams, Pistons, titanium valves etc. I am an illiterate at this point but have just bought BA's and Wayne's books on the 911 engine....
I wanna keep it NA.... I know i could bolt a turbo on it and easily get 400hp...
My 3.2 has 125k on it... so not sure how much I could get for it...

What kind of money have you put into machine work on this engine. I have a 3.2L core engine and good 964 3.6L crank that I have been contemplating a 3.5L of my own. I would use JE pistons with my KS cylinders overbored and Pauter rods.

My end result would be different, as I am planning an Autorotor 1.5L supercharger with Ford EEC-V engine management (cheap parts and fully controllable with SCT Pro Racer engine software ($800).

My problem is understanding the true machine shop costs for block prep, head work, crank upgrades, etc..

If you have a 3.6 crank already, you can make your 3.2L into a 3.6L just by using specially modified 100mm pistons with the stock 3.2L rods. Andial has the drawings to do the addl. piston machining.

Let's just say alot for machine work. Again, some of these mods can be bypassed if a strict budget must be adhered to.

$700 to:
disassemble heads
bead blast heads
polish intake ports
replace 12 guides
replace/regrind valves
grind valve seats
valve job
machine spring seats for AASCO springs
set valve spring height
reassemble heads

$290 to twin-plug heads and valve covers

$225 to surface and bevel heads for 100mm bore

$100 to hot tank case, r&r oil galleys and clean oil squirters

$40 to remove old head studs

$170 to machine engine case spigots for 100mm bore

$200 to boattail engine case

$295 to shuffle pin engine case

$215 to recondition rocker arms and polish shafts

$80 to moon cylinders

$60 to magnaflux and micropolish crank

$150 to recondition connecting rods

$150 to balance engine complete

$50 to surface 240mm G50 flywheel

It all adds up in a hurry, doesn't it?

Ralph

Unless you change the injection, RSR cams and Motronic won't mix well. If you decide 3.7L you can use your stock 3.2L crank and just get the 102mm Mahle pistons & cylinders from Andial and upgraded rods from Carillo or Pauter.

Ti valves are expensive and overkill for street use. What would you be using the motor for? Street, race or some combination thereof?

Don't know the going price for used 3.2L's, but would guess it would fetch at least 5K if in good condition.

Ralph

Yeah, you are not kidding! I was suprised by the cash into the heads I did not figure anywhere neat $1200! I was suprised the spigot bore at $170, I figured a bit more. Although, equally suprised with the $295 for shuffle pins - include an align bore/hone as well?

As for the pistons and rods, I will probably keep with the over bored 3.2L jugs and JE pistons, as I need custom low compression pistons anyhow and could avoid the spigot bore and associated issues. 2mm bore just isn't worth it when I plan to force feed the engine anyhow! Pauter rods will replace the stock rods for a more comfortable feeling when I step into it!

Thanks for the info it was great. Did you have everything done at Ollies?

Sorry Carrera3.5L, your engine is VERY sweet, I'm not denying that at all. I'm just a forced induction JUNKY, so don't mind my comments ;)

Having said that, 911teo, for much less than your budget, you can easily Twin Turbo that sucker for over 650+HP using 97mm, 98mm or 100mm P&C's and lag would hardly be noticable.

Just ask "Mike the mechanic". He's done such a conversion for significantly less that what your budgeting :cool:

Again, this is just the view from a boost Junky ;)

Ralph,

when you talk RWHP what factor are you allowing for drive train loss.

I had a 3.2 on MFI with RS cams that made 228RWHp and the motor wasn't twin plugged.

One of the guys I race with has a 3.5 on aftermarket injection with GE 100 cams his motor is supposed to be making 280RWHp

Michael

911 74 Modified
911 71 Stock

I'm figuring 15% for driveline loss. Can't tell you if that is 100% accurate, but seems to be an acceptable figure with many.

If the percentage is correct, 280 rwhp would be about 330 crank horsepower, which is probably consistent with the mods you describe.

Ralph

No offense taken at all. That's why I put a happy face! I've never been a turbo guy myself, but I realize the limitations of staying normally aspirated. I just want a strong and dependable street car that I can drive everyday and not have to cower when C5 Vettes or the STI/EVO 8 crowd comes calling. I'll have a little something for them I think.:D Gotta make sure she'll live on 91 octane and pass CA emissions though. Would be tough to do easily with an aftermarket turbo package unless I found a smog station on the take.

Yes, Ollie's did all of the machine work. What's the old saying, you have to pay if you want to play? I think the prices charged are reasonable, it just costs a boatload for everything. That's why I tried to spread everything out over the past 5 months, so it wouldn't hit me all at once.

Ralph

The bottom end is together! 2 hours from start to finish tonight.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097722660.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097722698.jpg

Sorry, can't show the internals going together because of the "gag order". Everything went together perfectly thus far, case is sealed and case through-bolts torqued to 30 ft/lbs.

Tomorrow night we'll install the ARP head studs, connecting rods with ARP bolts and maybe get to the 100mm piston and cylinders.

I know some of you are thinking why didn't the rods get installed before the case was sealed? Answer is personal preference. Installing the rods before the case is sealed is obviously easier because you have no problem with space but with the case sealed you have to do it through the cylinder bore in the case which leaves less room to play with. My buddy Steve (formerly of PMNA) prefers to do it this way but says it really doesn't matter.

Ralph

Nice, did you upgrade the piston squirters as well? A common upgrade for high compression (or high boost) applications is to install 964/993 piston squirters which keeps the pistons cooler under load :cool:

Merv, thought about it and asked my buddy what he thought and he said I should be fine and figured here was an area where I could save a little bit of money by reusing what I have. They have been cleaned and should be good to go. Good advice to throw out there though. If only I had an unlimited budget and could get everything I really wanted...

Ralph

Ralph, if you had the case split already, it wouldn't have cost much more to upgrade the piston squirters as these are very cheap items.

Anyway, I think this upgrade is probably more suited to a big boost turbo application which results in a higher effective compression ratio under full boost, therefore higher piston temps.

I think in NA trim, you'll be OK :)

Ralph:
Aside from the boat tail or possible crank mods, what could be so secret as not to show??
Regards,
J.P.

Nothing is secret, but because this build will be featured in the magazine, they want exclusive access to the images and descriptions for a period of 4 months. Since magazine leadtimes are much, much longer I can't say I blame them. They want people to go out and buy the magazine.

Ralph

You'll have OVER 240 rwhp -

Tonight's update, October 14th. Only was able to work 1.5 hours tonight, I must have misplaced the guide for the longer oil pressure relief spring because I can't find it!

My engine builder buddy Steve installed the flywheel with new pilot bearing and bolts and then installed the rods on the crank and torqued the new ARP rod bolts. I installed the drain plug (whoopee!), int. shaft cover, oil breather, oil pressure switch, the 4 chain ramps (3 black and 1 brown) and the shorter oil pressure relief spring and piston. Anyone notice that I got to do the easy stuff? It's not coincidence!

A couple of pics:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097809233.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097809398.jpg

That's it, except for the longer oil pressure relief assembly and the oil thermostat (which is backordered from my vendor) the case looks to be done. Looks like we are ready for the ARP head studs and then the 100mm cylinders!

Ralph

"I will not drop out of school to pursue power in the SC, I'm not going to try and make a 3.5 out of my 3.0 no matter how good that one looks. Bad Mike, stay in school, stop fanatasizy over turbos. Bad Mike, bad mike, stop looking at that 3.5 case!"
Dude, you suck :D

Getting back to this, I now believe that I didn't misplace it because I don't remember seeing it when I pulled it out of the motor. For reference, this guide is for the longer oil pressure relief spring and piston assembly that is mounted vertically in the case. Talked to a few people this morning, and I guess it is somewhat common for the guide to be missing, although no one really knows why.

Does anyone know why some motors have the guide installed and some don't? I'm getting a guide to install btw.

Ralph

Looks nice!

What are the plans forcyl. base seal?

Can the cylinders be O ringed for sealing purposes or is this done to the case?
Regards,
J.P.

964 and base 993 have o-ring grooves in cyl only

993RS has grooves in both cyl. and c/c

Bill/J.P.,

My PMNA buddy says we are going to use Yamabond (a gasket glue). We used the Yamabond for sealing the case as well, as he is not a big fan of 574. He feels the Yamabond is more pliable and easier to work with.

He's been doing it this way forever with excellent results so I don't question it.:)

Any ideas with respect to the oil pressure relief spring guide? Obviously, if some motors apparently have it and some don't, it must not be absolutely necessary but I wonder what the rationale is? JIT at Porsche run amok?

Ralph

Not familiar w/ Yamabond, but that is in line w/ previous discusions
cyl. base seals

My # 6 cyl began leaking (very slight) @ 40K miles, now at 89K it's a bit worse. You can see a slight lip from the base copper gasket. Is there anyway to keep from these leaking should I perform a rebuild? Engine is a 3.2 DME with Mahle P &C's.
Thanks,
J.P.

Any ideas with respect to the oil pressure relief spring guide?

- Dunno -- but check to see if PAG put out a TSB on it. There is a book that lists all of them that PAG puts out.

Give us periodic updates on the engine -- looks like a nice one.

How much beer do you owe your buddy?

The funny thing is, I am doing most of the work and he is supervising for the most part and making sure I don't !@#$ something up. He has plenty of time to drink beer! Seriously, he is a wiz with 911 based motors, that's all he did for 15 years at Andial/PMNA is build 935, 956/962, 959 and GT-1 motors among others day in and day out.

Andial called him back a few months ago and asked him to rebuild a 959 motor because no one else there had done one since he left. He took off quite a few afternoons from managing his machine shop to rebuild it for them. He builds quite a few motors for various shops in the area and has built quite a few motors for Kerry Morse and his special projects (i.e. 904/906/908 motors etc).

He has all the torque specs in his head from the different engine types and can recite the spec for just about every bolt. Unbelievable. I am fortunate to not only have a great engine builder assist me, but a good friend who sacrifices his personal time to help as well. It is reassuring to know that I have him looking over my shoulder to correct me when it looks like I am ready to do something wrong.

I owe him alot more then beer.:D If my motor looks as good as his 3.4L twin-plug, I will be happy. I found out last night that he used Ti nuts for his case fasteners. He doesn't have any left over.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097900059.jpg

J.P., I don't want to speculate on your question, if no one else can chime in I will find out what my friend and/or a couple of other experts think. You may want to try and pose that question in the engine rebuilding forum, there are quite a few professional engine builders there that provide great info for us DIY. Hopefully it won't mean a complete teardown.

Ralph

See next thread.

Thank you Ralph.
On your friend's motor, what has been done to the intake? They look as if the outside is completely smoothed over, are the insides smoothed/flowed?
Regards,
J.P.
Look at mine, the casting halves show clearly compared to your pic.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097905285.jpg

Here's a better pic:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097905561.jpg

J.P., I like the contrast of your motor with the red wires. I will install red Magnecor's as well so I get an idea as to what they will look like although I will have twice as many. I chose a black & silver theme (no, not a Raiders fan) so red should contrast nicely.

Steve sent his plenums Extrude Hone so the insides have been smoothed over with the abrasive putty they use. I know he bead blasted the outside of the plenums but can't remember if he has some sort of finish on them. I don't think so but will have to ask him that as well and get back to you. The picture doesn't lie though, the plenums are definitely smoothed over. He built this motor for himself while he was still at PMNA so he had easy access to everything. Now both of us come in on our hands and knees and ask if we can use some of the equipment. We still have 2 friends that are engine builder's there and they were kind enough to ultrasonic clean my engine cooler and surface my valve covers after being powdercoated. They will soon be getting my G50 to throw in their parts "dishwasher" to get rid of all the grime before it goes back in the car.

When I worked at Andial (over 11 years ago), Extrude Hone was just becoming known and not many people had direct experience with them or their process yet. What we used to do in the late 80's is send the plenums to Ollie's and they would cut them open and polish the insides and then weld them back together. On the engine dyno, this process made about 5-7 hp. The only problem is that you could clearly see the welds. We would get them back from Ollie's and bead blast the outside of the plenums, and that helped "hide" the welds quite a bit but you could still see them. If any of you have the old Andial catalog from the late 80's and early 90's you can see in the picture of their 3.2L "horsepower" kit which consisted of a chip, the modified plenums and the old Tezet sport muffler.

Once Extrude Hone became better known in the industry and offered their services, Andial sent a set of plenums over there for modification and then dyno'd back to back. They made comparable power gains and the cost is pretty much the same. I know that Andial sends them over to Extrude Hone now because the plenums look better (i.e. original) externally. They always keep a set of extrude honed plenums on the shelf ready to exchange for a customer.

Ralph

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1097900059.jpg
Schwing!

Ralph:
I didn't realize both you and Steve worked at Andial. Back in the mid 80's, I remember speaking to Deiter regarding power gains for the 3.2; the kit you mentioned was discussed. Brad Ripley was the PR guy at the time. The DME was the only thing I sent for mod.
Steve's plenums look very close to 962 units with the seamless finish. "Hated the weld look of the early Andial plenums.
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Was Neil Harvey there during your stint?

I worked on the street side in parts (right out of high school and while attending University at night) and Steve was shop foreman on the race side. I don't know Brad Ripley, I was employed there from '88 to '93. Bob Carlson was PMNA's marketing guy then and he still is now. I really like and respect Dieter. He taught me alot on how to do things and I took that with me to my current job. He can be abrasive and short on patience with customers and employees alike, but off the clock he is a good guy. Heck, Steve and I were doing Jagermeister shots with him at Oktoberfest last year!

Yes, Neil started after me and left before me but we still keep in contact as well. He is a genius with engine electronics and had some ideas to make the 962 motor more competitive (i.e. less lag and thus better throttle response) because the Nissan, Jaguar and later Toyota had already passed by. I remember Neil got to try his tricks out and first went to a test session with Dyson with his revised electronics and the motor really responded, energizing the whole Dyson crew. Then the next week James Weaver (driving for Dyson Racing) took pole at Mid-Ohio and everyone in the paddock took notice.

Unfortunately, Neil butted heads with Alwin quite frequently. He wanted to think outside the box with his electronics and camshaft profiles and Porsche wanted to do it their way. Guess who lost that battle. Performance Developments seems to be doing okay for him, he is building alot of ultra-exotic stuff, including Carl Aiken's 930 that won the Car & Driver (or was it Road & Track) supercar shoot-out a few years back. Since he was an engineer at Brabham during the turbo BMW days, he knew Piquet very well and sent down to Brazil a beautiful lithograph I purchased for him to personally sign. How do you know Neil? If you want his business number, PM me and I can give it to you.

Ralph