3.2 to 3.5 - Part II

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
Ralph:
Aside from the boat tail or possible crank mods, what could be so secret as not to show??
Regards,
J.P.

Nothing is secret, but because this build will be featured in the magazine, they want exclusive access to the images and descriptions for a period of 4 months. Since magazine leadtimes are much, much longer I can't say I blame them. They want people to go out and buy the magazine.

Ralph

[Craig 930 RS]

You'll have OVER 240 rwhp -

[Carrera3.5L]

Tonight's update, October 14th. Only was able to work 1.5 hours tonight, I must have misplaced the guide for the longer oil pressure relief spring because I can't find it!

My engine builder buddy Steve installed the flywheel with new pilot bearing and bolts and then installed the rods on the crank and torqued the new ARP rod bolts. I installed the drain plug (whoopee!), int. shaft cover, oil breather, oil pressure switch, the 4 chain ramps (3 black and 1 brown) and the shorter oil pressure relief spring and piston. Anyone notice that I got to do the easy stuff? It's not coincidence!

A couple of pics:






That's it, except for the longer oil pressure relief assembly and the oil thermostat (which is backordered from my vendor) the case looks to be done. Looks like we are ready for the ARP head studs and then the 100mm cylinders!

Ralph

[1fastredsc]

"I will not drop out of school to pursue power in the SC, I'm not going to try and make a 3.5 out of my 3.0 no matter how good that one looks. Bad Mike, stay in school, stop fanatasizy over turbos. Bad Mike, bad mike, stop looking at that 3.5 case!"
Dude, you suck

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Carrera3.5L
I must have misplaced the guide for the longer oil pressure relief spring because I can't find it!

Getting back to this, I now believe that I didn't misplace it because I don't remember seeing it when I pulled it out of the motor. For reference, this guide is for the longer oil pressure relief spring and piston assembly that is mounted vertically in the case. Talked to a few people this morning, and I guess it is somewhat common for the guide to be missing, although no one really knows why.

Does anyone know why some motors have the guide installed and some don't? I'm getting a guide to install btw.

Ralph

[Bill Verburg]

Looks nice!

What are the plans forcyl. base seal?

[jpahemi]

Can the cylinders be O ringed for sealing purposes or is this done to the case?
Regards,
J.P.

[Bill Verburg]

964 and base 993 have o-ring grooves in cyl only

993RS has grooves in both cyl. and c/c

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
Looks nice!

What are the plans forcyl. base seal?

Bill/J.P.,

My PMNA buddy says we are going to use Yamabond (a gasket glue). We used the Yamabond for sealing the case as well, as he is not a big fan of 574. He feels the Yamabond is more pliable and easier to work with.

He's been doing it this way forever with excellent results so I don't question it.

Any ideas with respect to the oil pressure relief spring guide? Obviously, if some motors apparently have it and some don't, it must not be absolutely necessary but I wonder what the rationale is? JIT at Porsche run amok?

Ralph

[Bill Verburg]

Not familiar w/ Yamabond, but that is in line w/ previous discusions
cyl. base seals

[jpahemi]

My # 6 cyl began leaking (very slight) @ 40K miles, now at 89K it's a bit worse. You can see a slight lip from the base copper gasket. Is there anyway to keep from these leaking should I perform a rebuild? Engine is a 3.2 DME with Mahle P &C's.
Thanks,
J.P.

[Randy Webb]

Any ideas with respect to the oil pressure relief spring guide?

- Dunno -- but check to see if PAG put out a TSB on it. There is a book that lists all of them that PAG puts out.

Give us periodic updates on the engine -- looks like a nice one.

How much beer do you owe your buddy?

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
How much beer do you owe your buddy?

The funny thing is, I am doing most of the work and he is supervising for the most part and making sure I don't !@#$ something up. He has plenty of time to drink beer! Seriously, he is a wiz with 911 based motors, that's all he did for 15 years at Andial/PMNA is build 935, 956/962, 959 and GT-1 motors among others day in and day out.

Andial called him back a few months ago and asked him to rebuild a 959 motor because no one else there had done one since he left. He took off quite a few afternoons from managing his machine shop to rebuild it for them. He builds quite a few motors for various shops in the area and has built quite a few motors for Kerry Morse and his special projects (i.e. 904/906/908 motors etc).

He has all the torque specs in his head from the different engine types and can recite the spec for just about every bolt. Unbelievable. I am fortunate to not only have a great engine builder assist me, but a good friend who sacrifices his personal time to help as well. It is reassuring to know that I have him looking over my shoulder to correct me when it looks like I am ready to do something wrong.

I owe him alot more then beer. If my motor looks as good as his 3.4L twin-plug, I will be happy. I found out last night that he used Ti nuts for his case fasteners. He doesn't have any left over.



J.P., I don't want to speculate on your question, if no one else can chime in I will find out what my friend and/or a couple of other experts think. You may want to try and pose that question in the engine rebuilding forum, there are quite a few professional engine builders there that provide great info for us DIY. Hopefully it won't mean a complete teardown.

Ralph

[jpahemi]

See next thread.

[jpahemi]

Thank you Ralph.
On your friend's motor, what has been done to the intake? They look as if the outside is completely smoothed over, are the insides smoothed/flowed?
Regards,
J.P.
Look at mine, the casting halves show clearly compared to your pic.

[jpahemi]

Here's a better pic:

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
On your friend's motor, what has been done to the intake? They look as if the outside is completely smoothed over, are the insides smoothed/flowed?
Regards,
J.P.

J.P., I like the contrast of your motor with the red wires. I will install red Magnecor's as well so I get an idea as to what they will look like although I will have twice as many. I chose a black & silver theme (no, not a Raiders fan) so red should contrast nicely.

Steve sent his plenums Extrude Hone so the insides have been smoothed over with the abrasive putty they use. I know he bead blasted the outside of the plenums but can't remember if he has some sort of finish on them. I don't think so but will have to ask him that as well and get back to you. The picture doesn't lie though, the plenums are definitely smoothed over. He built this motor for himself while he was still at PMNA so he had easy access to everything. Now both of us come in on our hands and knees and ask if we can use some of the equipment. We still have 2 friends that are engine builder's there and they were kind enough to ultrasonic clean my engine cooler and surface my valve covers after being powdercoated. They will soon be getting my G50 to throw in their parts "dishwasher" to get rid of all the grime before it goes back in the car.

When I worked at Andial (over 11 years ago), Extrude Hone was just becoming known and not many people had direct experience with them or their process yet. What we used to do in the late 80's is send the plenums to Ollie's and they would cut them open and polish the insides and then weld them back together. On the engine dyno, this process made about 5-7 hp. The only problem is that you could clearly see the welds. We would get them back from Ollie's and bead blast the outside of the plenums, and that helped "hide" the welds quite a bit but you could still see them. If any of you have the old Andial catalog from the late 80's and early 90's you can see in the picture of their 3.2L "horsepower" kit which consisted of a chip, the modified plenums and the old Tezet sport muffler.

Once Extrude Hone became better known in the industry and offered their services, Andial sent a set of plenums over there for modification and then dyno'd back to back. They made comparable power gains and the cost is pretty much the same. I know that Andial sends them over to Extrude Hone now because the plenums look better (i.e. original) externally. They always keep a set of extrude honed plenums on the shelf ready to exchange for a customer.

Ralph

[JeremyD]

Schwing!

[jpahemi]

Ralph:
I didn't realize both you and Steve worked at Andial. Back in the mid 80's, I remember speaking to Deiter regarding power gains for the 3.2; the kit you mentioned was discussed. Brad Ripley was the PR guy at the time. The DME was the only thing I sent for mod.
Steve's plenums look very close to 962 units with the seamless finish. "Hated the weld look of the early Andial plenums.
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Was Neil Harvey there during your stint?

[Carrera3.5L]

Originally posted by jpahemi
Ralph:
I didn't realize both you and Steve worked at Andial. Back in the mid 80's, I remember speaking to Deiter regarding power gains for the 3.2; the kit you mentioned was discussed. Brad Ripley was the PR guy at the time. The DME was the only thing I sent for mod.
Steve's plenums look very close to 962 units with the seamless finish. "Hated the weld look of the early Andial plenums.
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Was Neil Harvey there during your stint?

I worked on the street side in parts (right out of high school and while attending University at night) and Steve was shop foreman on the race side. I don't know Brad Ripley, I was employed there from '88 to '93. Bob Carlson was PMNA's marketing guy then and he still is now. I really like and respect Dieter. He taught me alot on how to do things and I took that with me to my current job. He can be abrasive and short on patience with customers and employees alike, but off the clock he is a good guy. Heck, Steve and I were doing Jagermeister shots with him at Oktoberfest last year!

Yes, Neil started after me and left before me but we still keep in contact as well. He is a genius with engine electronics and had some ideas to make the 962 motor more competitive (i.e. less lag and thus better throttle response) because the Nissan, Jaguar and later Toyota had already passed by. I remember Neil got to try his tricks out and first went to a test session with Dyson with his revised electronics and the motor really responded, energizing the whole Dyson crew. Then the next week James Weaver (driving for Dyson Racing) took pole at Mid-Ohio and everyone in the paddock took notice.

Unfortunately, Neil butted heads with Alwin quite frequently. He wanted to think outside the box with his electronics and camshaft profiles and Porsche wanted to do it their way. Guess who lost that battle. Performance Developments seems to be doing okay for him, he is building alot of ultra-exotic stuff, including Carl Aiken's 930 that won the Car & Driver (or was it Road & Track) supercar shoot-out a few years back. Since he was an engineer at Brabham during the turbo BMW days, he knew Piquet very well and sent down to Brazil a beautiful lithograph I purchased for him to personally sign. How do you know Neil? If you want his business number, PM me and I can give it to you.

Ralph