MFI, points question

[Grady Clay]

James,

Have you checked the static ignition timing? That needs to be reasonably close to TDC or slightly retarded.

Yup, pull the plugs and dry them out.
Put a hot-air heater under the engine.
Disconnect the cold start fuel and crank the engine occasionally over an hour or so with the plugs out.
Remember to keep charging the battery.
Reinstall clean, dry sparkplugs.
If it won’t start in the first few attempts, stop.

The two choices are to repeat the above process or try some “starting fluid.” This is available at all auto parts stores, even Wal-Mart. This is “ether” and is extremely flammable. Use as little as possible, it has octane rating of 2.

Once running you must first make sure the ignition timing is within the ball park.

Best,
Grady

[mjshira]

thanks. I have new plugs in the car, do I need to pull them? It seems like it is trying to start. I think it would be wise to (if someone can clearly explain via this thread) to get the timing closer. The cold start is NOT connected, I think that the car is getting enough fuel (I tried with less fuel and it was not trying to start as much as now)

[mjshira]

I am not sure how to check that Grady (static)

[Tyson Schmidt]

James, to set the static timing, turn the engine over to TDC. The Z1 mark will line up with the mark on the fan housing and the case split. Once the marks are lined up, pull the distributor cap, rotor, and cover.
When you twist the distributor shaft, (you'll be actuating the mechanical advance) the points should go from closed to just starting to open the moment you twist it.

[Shuie]

I had to go back and re-read the thread. How did you ever get it to start easily without the cold start squirter? My car needs a solid 30 seconds of cranking before it will fire without the cold start squirter. Seriously, trying to start the car without the CS hooked up was a major PIA.

Are you sure its always been disconnected? Is the line off of the filter assembly plugged? Is there any fuel hose running to your throttle bodies?

Here's a thread where I got a lot of help troubleshooting mine.

[mjshira]

ok, I will do that tomorrow and then try and start the car. In all the ****** with things it might just be too far off now. Thanks guys and especially Tyson and Ronnie for the phone support.

[mjshira]

Tyson and I didnt get a chance to get it hooked up. Yes, it used to fire right up without it. That was before it started getting a little colder and before I f-ed up and fuel fouled the plugs, not to mention that the points wore down which all contributed to this wonderful situation I am in. That said, I have learned a ton!

[mjshira]

so, I can use turn the motor over, align these marks, pull the distributer cap, if its not as Tyson discribed above, adjust and then the timing should be ok?

[Grady Clay]

James,

Have you had the distributor out of the engine? If so, stop now and report back to us. There is another different set of steps to follow. It is possible the distributor is 180 out or other.

If not, proceed.

If, for whatever reason, the cylinders have way too much fuel, you must dry them out. That is the reason I suggested pulling the plugs. Even brand new plugs can easily become fuel fouled and need to be dried. Warming the cylinders and heads helps. Cranking the engine with the plugs out helps expel the excess fuel from the cylinders.

An easy way to check/set the cranking timing is to put the timing light clamp-on pickup on the coil wire and crank while adjusting (rotating) the distributor to get the light at the timing mark. This gives you six flashes per two revolutions, easy to see. Even better when the plugs are out (connect a plug wire and plug to the coil and ground the plug) because the engine turns faster. The basic adjustment is at the mark while cranking. (You are using the TDC mark and the two 120 marks.)

Once you have everything running and warm, set the timing at 6000 rpm to what Tyson specs. Always recheck it after final tightening of the distributor.

Best,
Grady

[mjshira]

no, I have not messed with it, other than to turn it clockwise 2 MM per Tyson, that is all. I just want to make sure that I get the points right.

thanks Grady. I dont have a remote starter and I would hate to have to pull all those plugs again... plus it seems like it is nearly starting. it is making lots of noise, baby back fires for lack of a better phrase, so I think we are close. Plus, I have not pumped the gas, or sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner in there.

[Shuie]

Any chance the belt that drives the MFI pump has slipped a couple of notches or jumped off track?

[mjshira]

I dont think so since it was running fine and all the plugs I pulled out were badly fuel fouled. I think it will start if I get the timing closer and turn it over a bunch (Tyson is on board with this too) we'll see, I am nervous about the timing thing based on my lack of experience but I have been able to get this far (thanks fellas) and I also have an understanding of what I am trying to do.

[Grady Clay]

James,

I’m not a fan of using carb cleaner, WD-40, etc. as starting fluid.
Use only real either Starting Fluid.

An easy technique for insuring the thermostat is turned off is to use a hair dryer
or heat gun into the thermostat air exhaust while the engine is not running.
You can use aluminum foil as an air adapter.
This helps to insure you aren’t adding more fuel while cranking.

Another technique for clearing the cylinders is to pop off the control rod
to the MFI pump at the cross-shaft (arrow in image.)
Just pop off the end at the cross-shaft and not at the pump.
Insure the rod stays toward the rear of the car.
That lets the pump fuel be at idle or less.
Disconnect the ignition.
Then hold the throttle wide open and crank for ten seconds occasionally.
The reason for the open throttle is to get maximum pure air in the combustion chamber.
The compression heating of the air will help vaporize
the unburned fuel and pump it out the exhaust.
Remember to pop on the control rod when you try and start the engine.

"
"
(C) 1969 Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche A.G.

Best,
Grady

[mjshira]

thanks Grady. I was able to get that rod off last night and I cranked the car over, no start, it didn't even try to. When I added the rod back (normal operation) it would then pop (small backfire as I mentioned above) and seem to show more "life". I will pick up that either today, get the air cleaner off and drop a SMALL amount into each hole and then turn it over. Before I do all of this I am going to make sure that the timing is as close as I can get it. Stay tuned fellas! Lets hope she'll run tonight.

I think what has caused this condition is as follows:

1. my office is only 1.5 miles from the house, thus the car was not getting warm before being shut down

2. without a connected cold start, and with the temps going lower in the night hours, I was having to work harder e.g. pump the gas, to get the car to start in the morning, thus (I think) building up fuel on the plugs and contributing to this (when I changed to new plugs it showed more life than at anytime before)

3. when I checked the points early in the process they didn't seem to be opening (I cranked the engine over two full cycles). Since then I have set them to open one matchbook width as per Ronnie.

4. I have modifed the position of the distributer by 2-3 MM as per Tyson CLOCKWISE (closing by that amount the gap on the right of its adjustment point) this might have contributed to the out of timing issue, not sure (see number 3)

So that is why I will focus on getting the points right before trying to start it again. Since I know I have spark and with the reputation of either given here, I assume (dangerous I know) that it'll fire with the either.

LETS HOPE SO!

Thanks so much to all you guys, this BBS rocks!

James

p/s

as pissed off as I am - somehow I am still having fun! the addiction to Porsche is that strong!

[Early_S_Man]

James,







The proper point gap is 0.014". Matchbook cover will get you in the ballpark, but a proper feeler gauge setting would be better! I believe the timing is off by more than 20° or you wouldn't be having difficulty starting.

My suggestion is to get a 12 Volt test lamp, and set static timing as follows:

1. Turn the engine over to TDC #1 with the crank pulley Z1 notch aligned vertically with fan housing notch and crankcase centerline.

2. Rotate the distributor until rotor is in vicinity of the #1 cylinder notch on the distributor body [in the pic]

3. Connect test lamp cord to a convenient fuse location ... when probe is grounded, the lamp should illuminate.

4. Disconnect trigger wire at distributor. Hold test lamp probe to distributor trigger terminal.

5. Rotate distributor body clockwise until test lamp is on ... rotate distributor body counter-clockwise very slowly until test lamp just goes out. That is a static timing point of TDC. Tighten distibutor clamp nut without moving distributor body!!! Recheck timing by turning engine over 2 complete crank revolutions by hand to see if timing is still precisely at TDC. Engine should start relatively easy at that timing setting!

Any further questions about the distributor and setting the timing to factory specs should be answered by the following thread:

distributor lube...

[Grady Clay]

James,

Be sure and keep a large 20#+ CO2 fire extinguisher handy. That way if you even SUSPECT there might be a fire, you can blast away and not disable the engine with powder.

I am editing my above post to explain why it is important to crank the engine with open throttles. There are many who lurk and don’t ask “why.”

1) See if you can find a nice small breakfast spot 10-20 miles from home with several possible routes. That gives you a nice wake-up shot of Porsche in the mornings and lets Scruffy get some heat.

2) I agree.

3&4) It is hard to tell at this point. The points may have been an issue originally or it is possible you went down the wrong trail. One of the most difficult things with automotives (as medicine) is diagnosis. Even the best equipped shops (and medical centers) have a difficult time with proper diagnosis. Regularly skilled professional automotive technicians and physicians get lead down the wrong path.
This is the main point behind Check, Measure, Adjust (CMA). You have to Check everything. You have to Measure all of the quantifiable parameters. Only then do you Adjust something and then knowing how to re-adjust back to the original setting. Sort of the physicians “Do no harm” philosophy applied to MFI 911s. It is difficult enough to identify a single problem. It is exponentially more difficult when there are two problems.

This brings me back to your situation. To solve problems like this, you need three things; knowledge, tools & equipment, and a convenient place to operate (pun intended.)
You should start yourself a “Scruffy notebook” that is a combination workshop manual, parts manual, notes, wiring diagram, clipped articles & threads, photos, and much more. The knowledge you learn and have available will be invaluable to you and Scruff’s next caretaker. Of course there is a huge reservoir of knowledge available on line.
Basic tools and diagnostic equipment doesn’t have to be very expensive. There have been some good Pelican threads on this subject.
In Southern Indiana you are going to have weather to contend with. Rain, sleet, snow in the winter; heat, humidity and insects in the summer. You need an enclosed heated, dehumidified and air conditioned garage.



Tyson,
James’ troubles reinforce my liking the early MFI pump front cover with both an enrichment solenoid and a shut-off solenoid. That front cover and solenoids fit all Bosch street MFI pumps I have seen.
I have wired them to momentarily enable one solenoid or the other with a center-off position.

Best,
Grady

[mjshira]

thanks Warren & Grady. With that information I think I have a very strong chance of success. Although, I maintain that the timing is close enough to start (IMHO) having that verified will be great! I knew it was not 180 out because 1. you can't put the cap on that way due to the male side 2. you cant put the rotor on 180 out. So I must be close. The either will be what makes a difference I think.

So, does PepBoys have that stuff? Where should I get it as I can't recall seeing it before?

[Grady Clay]

James,

Yes, your Pep Boys should have a 12 V test light and either Starting Fluid. That is where I get mine.

Starting fluid was necessary when we were racing IKF spec 5 HP Briggs & Stratton with methanol fuel. The combination of relatively low compression and cold methanol wouldn’t allow them to start cold even on a warm day.

Best,
Grady

[mjshira]

thanks Grady. It give me some confidence to know that this should help get me running. Once I get is running, will I ever be able to have confidence in it starting again??

[H.G.P.]

James:

I like, with each new post, to "re-post" an outline (checklist) of what I've gone through up to the moment, for the benefit of the heavy hitters here (the Warrens, Gradys, Jims, Ronin, Lorenb, etc.,)

example.

1. Battery _______

2. Fuel delivery system ______

3. Ignition Primary ______

Ignition switch ______
Connections secure_____
Rotor ______
Distrib. Cap ______

4. Ignition Secondary ______

______
5. Etc.,

And go right on down a clear priority checklist for your's and the experts (not me), that chime in here.

I usually look to the easy things first.

One last question: What condition is your dizzy rotor in?
And what condition are your dizzy contacts in?