Spark plug smashed severe..What came likely through/contact? How much damage?

[H.G.P.]

Any good tool sources, preferably 24hrs/2 day air/and cod/, just in case Pelican is restocking?

[H.G.P.]

Karnak: "The envelope please"

"The answer is...."

"Hideous"

[Randy Webb]

Sorry to see that. But now you know that crud got into the bottom end and it needs to be rebuilt.

If you take the cost and divide by (2004 - 1969) you will feel better.

[masraum]

Wow!!

THat's unfortunate. Anyone care to guess what happened?? I'm dying to know. almost looks to me like the valve hit the head, and instead of the valve bending or the head breaking off, the stem went through the head, but that seems unlikely. Did the valve break the head, or do you fellas think the valve and piston burned from detonation? Could the center electrode and insulator from the plug have broken off and fallen out into the cylinder? Well, that ring looks intact. so I guess maybe not detonation. I'm guessing the spark plug is the culprit here.

Good luck, Kirk.

[CarreraS2]

Yikes!

Maybe the valve guides wore out, valves got too hot and weak over time, and the valve finally broke off?

Bad news for you - but cool thread! I know I'm pullin' for ya!

[H.G.P.]

The top of the piston, if that is what I'm seeing, reminds me of page 113 bottom right picture in Anderson's book. It looks like someone shot it up.

I just removed the heads tonight, all the other piston "tops" are very black. Also all the valve stems visible have carbon running way, very "way", up to the top of the stems.

The one positive, the disassembly has been very easy. I'm going page by page following Wayne's book.

Here's another close up:





I realize it's t's early in disassembly, and this of course is my first real teardown of any engine, but I've already seen some used pistons (advertised as for 2.0) and heads for early 911 at an online auction site.

The prices seems fair, what should I be looking for (pistons ..all six or just one, heads, rebuild heads, head size(s) etc., ) and in regard to prices too?

Thanks

[dtw]

Complete rebuild is in order. Time now to slam on the brakes - you've got some research to do and some educated decisions to make. Keep in mind that this is going to cost some serious $. Because the metal fragments have reached your bottom end, the only correct way to rebuild is going to include pulling all oil system plugs and flushing all passages in the case and crank. Toss your oil pump in the trash and have your oil tank boiled out.

You've been wrenching first and thinking second so far, it's time to slow down and use some sound judgment now. Beware of those who are going to weigh in saying "Just buy a used 3.0 and throw this engine in the trash". - - How important is it to YOU to keep your original engine.

[masraum]

"Just buy a used 3.0 and throw this engine in the trash".

Taken a bit out of context, but that would be crazy. That engine's gotta be worth something to someone somewhere, sell the parts or the engine whole, and then put a 3.0 in the thing.

Brian K, the head of the valve is still there in the picture with a small hole in the middle of it, so I don't think it broke off.

[H.G.P.]

I'm looking at some auction parts so far, and some piston/head prices.

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by masraum
Taken a bit out of context, but that would be crazy. That engine's gotta be worth something to someone somewhere, sell the parts or the engine whole, and then put a 3.0 in the thing.

Brian K, the head of the valve is still there in the picture with a small hole in the middle of it, so I don't think it broke off.

That's what it looks like, I'll continue disassembly tomorrow evening. The head studs were OK (from what my inexperience can tell)

[HarryD]

Kirk,

Yikes!

Sorry for your findings.

Like others said, stop and think where YOU want to go. Cost wise you are looking at serious $$$. When you split the case, you will need costly machine work to get the surfaces to mate properly and some deep claening to get the bits out,

If originality is not important to you, an engine transplant may be more cost effective. If originality is important, then rebuild is the way to go.

[Wayne 962]

Hey, if I pay shipping, can I have that beat up head for my collection? I can't say I've ever seen a valve fall apart like that (can't really see too clearly in the photo)...

-Wayne

[Joeaksa]

Kirk,

Sorry to see damage like this but am not surprised. The spark plug did not look good...

Can you please slide the center cylinder off? Then take the piston in your hands and try to move it back and forth (right and left) as well as try to pull it towards you, then try to push it to the engine. Trying to tell what happened inside....

You really have two choices, one very easy and quick and one would take longer and a lot more educational and could cost just a bit less.

I had a 72 model and had at times a 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4 liter engine in the car. All bolt in very easily and no muss, no fuss. You could also put a 2.7, 3.0 or 3.2 in the car with little problem but I would convert the engine to carbs as installing a fuel injection system in an early car is a bit of work.

Second option is to overhaul the engine. Considering that you now have metal through-out the engine and oil system, you would need to clean the oil cooler, oil lines and front cooler (if you have one) to make sure that you do not get this metal in a new or overhauled engine.

There are various companies who would be happy to overhaul your engine, or you could attempt it yourself. The actual overhaul is not that difficult but I would not even think of used parts except for the cylinder head. Please put new pistons and cylinders in the engine. There is nothing like spending all the time to assemble an engine then having one cylinder or piston show up with a problem and having to tear it all apart again. A new set of P/C's is not that expensive and will last another 35 years if treated correctly.

Quicker and possibly cheaper is to find a used 3.0-3.2 engine that is in good condition. I just sold the 3.2 out of my 85 car for $5500. It had 90k miles, burned very little oil and ran very nice. It was built by the factory in Germany and had never been apart and there is a lot to be said for this. They know how to build engines there...

Whatever you do, stay away from Motor Meister for any parts or overhaul services. Once you have made up your mind, please post here and let us know. Lots of good experience and knowledge on the list here and we can tell you what has worked for us as well as what we would not do again!

Does anyone know if a cylinder head off of a 2.4 engine is the same as the one that Kirk needs? I might have a couple of extras sitting around the garage... I am assuming that he has a 2.0 liter engine in a 69 model car? You also need to post the engine number so we can confirm which engine this is. Considering the age of the car it could have been replaced somewhere along the way.

JoeA

[Grady Clay]

Kirk,

I agree, stop and think. You can continue disassembly so long as you take notes and photographs.

If you are willing to be careful, methodical and patient, you will have a great experience rebuilding your engine. You can end up with an engine that rivals the best. There are many on this Forum who will help you and our host has many of the parts.

OK, what is your VIN off the car and S/N and Type off the engine and transmission? There is some real value having matching numbers. That is not to say that buying another engine isn’t useful, just keep the original.

Looking at the images and reading your description of worn valve guides, I will speculate the exhaust valve overheated (it’s cooled by good contact with the guide.) It appears to be a hollow Sodium filled valve (it had a plug welded over the access to the hollow stem.) The welded plug appears to have come off and rattled around in the combustion chamber doing the damage you see. I agree with all, this takes a serious and careful rebuild. You are wise to have stopped when you did. A few more miles and the piston would have disintegrated and the resulting carnage ruined the case and more.

Your next step is to put a pencil to a possible rebuild. Research the cost of all the necessary parts. Find the choices for machine work. Collect information from the Factory Workshop Manual, Bentley, Haynes, Chilton’s, Dempsey, Anderson, and more. Get a Factory PET parts CD and price list CD.
Search for replacement engines; look at suitability, cost, condition, and installation costs. Remember, you can’t put a 3.6 on a 901 transmission and you don’t have a front oil cooler. All these things and many more must be considered.

You need to ask yourself what you are going to use the 911 for. Is it a daily, nice days & weekends, DE events, or race car? What is the condition of the 911 other than engine (rust, prior crash damage, general condition, and more)?

Keep in mind the cost/value ratio. Most don’t want $80K in a $15K car.
If you need transport, go buy a beater.
Did I see a post that you live here in Colorado? If possible, I’ll be glad to look and offer my lame 2c.

Above all, slow down and take your time considering all your options.

Best,
Grady

[Randy Webb]

IT's time to start thinking about hotrodding your engine. As I recall there is some hot setup using 2.2L engine parts.... I think it is in BA's book.

[H.G.P.]

Thanks for the kind responses everyone.

Yes, I'm going slow (for me). After peering through the spark plug hole, I'm now happy to have gone this far after only about a week.

My intention is to preserve/keep as many of the original parts on the car, but where necessary aftermarket perfectly acceptable, as long as compatibility is not an issue. (Exceptions are the MFI which is already replaced with carbs), and a few other items. For example. this means I do not mind dropping in a JE or so where absolutely necessary.

Use: Both daily driver, and weekend trips. Not for racing, but maybe a few track events.

This means as I go I'm keeping an inventory of parts being pulled off. (The garage is nearly full now though with labeled bags and clear fruit containers)

I'm only on page 34 of Waynes book so far.

Wayne: Sorry, I keep all the original parts off the car in a box.
(I like to see and read many of the old numbers off the parts for some reason.)

Here's a closer pic, as best from my digital.

The Head No. is : #901 104 306. 2R

No.2 is stamped: 10-68 K1819d


The case is: 901 101 101 2R (best I can read)

[Grady Clay]

Kirk,

Looking at your #3 combustion chamber, the mixture looks OK, abet a bit rich which is not unusual. There isn’t any sign from this view that the #3 exhaust valve is running too hot. How does #1 cylinder look?
On #2 I now see a head gasket leak on the exhaust side and is that a broken lower-left head stud?
If all five other cylinders appear the same, you need to look at the carburetor for #2 to see if there is something that possibly caused it to go lean. Careful diagnosis now can save a lot of grief later.

When did you notice something was wrong? What were the driving circumstances? How much was it driven after you noticed something wrong?

You said “this means I do not mind dropping in a JE or so where absolutely necessary.” A 911 engine needs to have a matched set of six P&Cs, among other matched parts.
As you have discovered, 911s are really cool engines and work outrageously well when built properly. You only want to do this once – correctly.

BTW, the numbers you quote are casting numbers, not part numbers. They are still very useful in identification.


Randy is right on. You should also consider the entire range of upgrades for the engine. Some are for performance and some are for longevity and reliability. A lot has been learned about your engine since it was new 35 years ago. Make use of that.

Did you get the MFI with the car?

Best,
Grady

[H.G.P.]

Originally posted by Grady Clay
Kirk,

How does #1 cylinder look?
On #2 I now see a head gasket leak on the exhaust side and is that a broken lower-left head stud?
If all five other cylinders appear the same, you need to look at the carburetor for #2 to see if there is something that possibly caused it to go lean. Careful diagnosis now can save a lot of grief later.

When did you notice something was wrong? What were the driving circumstances? How much was it driven after you noticed something wrong?

A 911 engine needs to have a matched set of six P&Cs, among D. other matched parts.
As you have discovered, 911s are really cool engines and work outrageously well when built properly. You only want to do this once – correctly.

Did you get the MFI with the car?

Best,
Grady

A. #1 cylinder looks similar to #3, some light brown color too.

B. Head studs all ok, and all the nuts and washers came off fine.

C. Is there JEs that match my originals (or others)?

D. No MFI when I got the car but has some of the MFI "plumbing" (return line), crankcase breather stufff still present but not in use.

E. I noticed the failure on #2 immediately after a start up on a routine errand. (Ran strong before the incident. ) I tried to coast back home, where possible after the failure. Drove with the faltered engine, only up three small hills back to the house.

Thanks!

[Jay Auskin]

H.G.P. ---That is exactly what happened to my engine. All I can guess is worn valve guides overheated the valves. The good thing is, aside from this, the damage was contained. I was able to rebuild my engine at the low end of most estimates. It was the first 911 engine I ever rebuilt, and using Wayne's book, It was no problem. It became a bit expensive a later for me because the car sat for 7 years, and many other car mechanicals needed replacing.

If you have the time, rebuild it yourself. Just put everything in baggies and label them. You WILL forget where everything goes. Alot of your parts should be reusable if the engine was in overall good shape before this.

[acapella8]

For what it's worth, I just spent almost an hour reading this entire thread based on the 1 year anniversary posted by Kirk.

Amazing story Kirk.

An inpiration to the others.

-Tom