AWD vs RWD

DG624 · 01:20 PM

I have been looking at repairs for my current 911 ('86 Carrera) and they are getting expensive. I have had some suspension and transmission repairs and am going to have some rust fixed. I really have not fixed the things I have wanted to yet. No engine work.

I also have been looking at some new cars...specfically the VW R32. If you have not seen this car it is basically a Golf with AWD and a V6 3.2 L engine with about 240 HP and a six speed. This is good but not super fast. The handling is very flat and and the engine is responsive at every level. I was comparing the handling (test drive) and it was good up to the point I was allowed to go with a salesman. DOes anyone own one of these and how does it compare to the 911 (handling only). I liked the interior and the subtle good looks. Somewhat expensive 29,000 for a second car. The AWD seemed smooth and very quite.

Aussie · Aussie's Garage

Why dont you go with a 964 C4?

AWD + Porsche

or a WRX if its more affordable.

ZAMIRZ · ZAMIRZ's Garage

They're good cars, but a bit on the heavy side. Not as nimble and tossable as a 911, but it gets the job done in a much more relaxed manner. You should be able to get one under sticker price these days since the VW dealers are getting nervous about having these cars still on their hands when the new Golf arives next year.

Aussie · Aussie's Garage

The new Golf has already landed here.

I prefer the look of the old model.

DG624 · 11-05-2004, 01:45 PM

I wanted to ask someone that owns one. Great seats and interior. I didn't get to really drive it hard. I also didn't see any curb weight. The AWD adds LBs. The thing I noticed was the quite ride compared to my car. I could hear the radio.

DG624 · 11-05-2004, 01:48 PM

Aussie, they are not going to give the U.S. the new style yet. I didn't like it either...looks too Italian. I have always like the Golf. Maybe a GTI is a better buy.

Jack Olsen · 11-05-2004, 04:52 PM

Are you looking for a newer car, or for AWD?

If it's the AWD... why?

I don't mean the question in an antagonistic way, but I've never understood the appeal of AWD for street or track cars.

WydRyd · 05:16 PM

I guess the appeal of AWD is that it offers better & safer cornering in wet or dry conditions (more traction). AWD obviously has more weight & drivetrain losses than a RWD, but that's offset by the cornering advantages I guess

RWD is more fun though, right Jack

rick conrath · 11-05-2004, 05:32 PM

I can't make it up my driveway in the winter without all wheel drive. That's why I went to the darkside. The Subaru is unbelievable in the rain....even with the track tires.
DG624...I just traded my GTI for a WRX STI. Try the Subaru first before you go the VW route. I had many electrical gremlins with My 2001 VR6 GTI from the start. The check engine light was on the day I traded it!
Rick
'78 930

WydRyd · 11-05-2004, 06:26 PM

There's no doubt about it, for unmatched wet weather traction, nothing beats AWD.

The Nissan GTR I rode in a few weeks ago had 4-wheel traction problems in 1st and 2nd IN THE DRY. A monster of a car indeed

anthony · 11-05-2004, 07:27 PM

The VW R32 sounds like an awesome car. Most of the car mags have said that they like it better than the WRX despite the lower horsepower. That said, I don't see how you compare it to an older 911. An aircooled Porsche provides a visceral experience that isn't duplicated in other cars.

PorscheGuy79 · PorscheGuy79's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by JackOlsen

I don't mean the question in an antagonistic way, but I've never understood the appeal of AWD for street or track cars.

I agree, I dont feel that AWD is a sporty or enjoyable as RWD. You dont get that feel from most cars and the grip speeds until the limit can get dangerous when that limit is reached. Granted that in something with major horsepower you feel it much more. But if the decision was 996 in nature, would you rather have the sure-footedness of the AWD 996 Turbo or the bitting 996 GT3 that lets you know when its had enough of your fun. For me it will always be the latter, but then again im weird.

RaceProEngineer · 11-05-2004, 08:45 PM

Merv,

I have been waiting for Jack to jump all over your statement, "AWD [] offers better & safer cornering in wet or dry conditions (more traction)."

Since he has not, I feel I must. All will agree that all-wheel drive has advantages in wet or (particularly) icy conditions. However, the bulk of that "more traction" of which you speak is found only in acceleration. In those conditions, one is looking for just enough cornering force to keep the car on the road. If the AWD vehicle has excellent balance, it MAY have some advantage in cornering but only IN THOSE CONDITIONS.

In dry conditions, a 2WD vehicle will out corner and out brake a similar AWD vehicle (all else being equal.) A quick look at the common graphic "traction circle" will explain why - tires used for powering the car have less grip available for cornering or stopping.

Further, for ultimate speed (where we want the tires a "little loose" in the turns), rear wheel drive is superior to front wheel drive. The racer feels he can "point" the RWD car, while the FWD seems to be more at the mercy of centrifugal force.

But you do not have to take our word for it - ask any of the formula car and prototype builders.

Ed LoPresti
RacePro Engineering

WydRyd · 11-05-2004, 09:10 PM

Hi Ed, no sweat, I should have been more specific and stated that I was referring to the advantages under acceleration

rick conrath · 11-06-2004, 02:27 AM

I was speaking of the STI not the WRX. The STI won Road and Tracks car of the year fror '04

Rick
'78 930

jevvy · 11-06-2004, 03:11 AM

just a few thoughts to throw into the pot...

I have a UK300 subaru(260bhp version) which i bought after getting tired of trying to find a 3.2 to replace the one I sold about 2 years ago. I loved the scooby when I first got it and ran it around for about 6 months then I began to get a bit bored with it - yes it is fast, yes it can corner in the wet like nothing else I have driven and yes I can get from A-B very fast along the country lanes and arrive at B relativley calm however I began to realise that it was too easy to drive fast and to push it close to the edge I had to be going stupid fast.

At this point I began to look at 911's again and one turned up cheap and I bought it, I have since handed the scooby over to the mrs and I drive the porka all the time, walkin out the door I will nearly always pick up the porsche keys as it is far more involving to drive and I feel like im always learning about how to drive it well - it rewards nice clean technique whereas the scooby doesnt really reward you in this way once you get used to the boost.

I hope my ramblings make sense and help you make a decission about what to buy - BTW I trounced a R32 in my scooby once - im sure he was trying too!(oh yeah and with the scooby you get a similar flat 4 burble to the porsche flat 6, the mrs loves the noise it makes)

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

I have owned RWD Porsches and AWD Audis for the last 20yrs. RWD w/ adequate power is a lot more fun mostly because oversteer can easily be induced w/ the throttle, but AWD also w/ adequate power is quicker. This is of course is much more noticable in slick conditions which are just exagerations/extrapolations of what is happening in the dry.

I agree w/ Ed's stratement "tires used for powering the car have less grip available for cornering or stopping." But the conclusion should be that the AWD will out corner the RWD because some the various loads are more evenly distributed among all 4 wheels.

There is a reason that the fastest rally cars are AWD

twin plugged targa · twin plugged targa's Garage

My GTI (1.8T) although not 4WD does have traction control and abs - which I find enough in the rain!. The car is a far more comfortable, quieter, practical and boring ride than the 911- therefore no comparison!.
The 911 is way more fun and not in the least practical!
Just my 2 cents!.
If you are interested in the R32 I would definately look at the WRX STI or Mitsubishi EVO for bang for buck!.

RaceProEngineer · 11-06-2004, 08:07 PM

Oh, Bill,

This is one of those truly RARE occasions (perhaps the only!) where I must heartily DISagree with your conclusions. Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to drive a worthy AWD car on the track, but we have several friends with Carrera4s.

I should also mention that my comments about capabilities above are related to ULTIMATE capabilities, as found in track driving or racing.

First of all, "slick conditions" are nothing like dry conditions - neither "exagerations/extrapolations", nor anything else. Relating to mechanical grip, virtually everything changes when it is wet - from all the suspension settings, to the type and pattern of rubber used, to even the racing line around a track! Virtually every characteristic which makes our cars fast in the dry, works against us in the wet, and visa versa.

"AWD will out corner the RWD because some the various loads are more evenly distributed among all 4 wheels." It is an interesting theory, but does not bear out on the track. One has but to watch similarly skilled drivers, one in a C2 and the other in a C4 of similar power - the C2 will eat his cousin alive! To go really quick, we need the front tires fully available at turn-in, then want to run at somewhere around 9 - 11 degrees slip angle on all four corners. If the fronts are still "driving" (even a little) they are detracting from grip needed for directional change. The generation of those slip angles seems impossible to achieve with the AWD in the dry - the tail will simply not step out enough with the throttle.

And finally, "There is a reason that the fastest rally cars are AWD." I certainly agree, but not for the reasons sited. The world rally cars are nearly always in a state of limited traction, due either to the surfaces on which they run being muddy (sandy, rutted), or because one or two wheels are off the ground. In that sense, they are quicker for the same reasons that they excel in the rain, or on ice - acceleration.

Don't everyone trade in your 911 for a Subaru just yet.
Ed LoPresti
RacePro Engineering

crashmy911 · 11-07-2004, 03:13 AM

A few weeks ago I saw one of those vw's and was playing with him with my 78sc. Lowered ride height, 964 cam and 8000 rpm valve spring car with headers. Well the guy in the vw was trying to run me and couldn't get any seperation on me on a curvy back road. I was riding up on him and acting like I was going to pass him. that thing couldn't corner faster nor could it pull me at all if there would have been more space I would have passed him. When we got to a light I pulled up next to him to make a right and he rolled down the window and asked me a few questions about my car. He wanted to no year and mods. He told me He had the car floored and I could play with him. He was not happy that his poor new r32 could be run by a old sc! Had this occur with one of those new firebirds too. But the road was curvy not straight where I think he would have left me for road kill!