PPI under way...now the questions.

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 10:51 AM

Having a PPI performed today on an '83 SC w/ stocker 3.0, 95k.

After a brief phone conversation w/ the mechanic, it seems that compression/leakdown on #4 is not good at all. Cylinders 1-2-3-5-6 are all in the 156-162 range and good leakdown, but #4 is 68 w/ considerable leakdown. Owner says a valve adjustment might lick this problem....is he speaking the truth or just trying to get me to bite?

Mechanic found a few other odds and ends that need attention, however it's nothing that can't be fixed easily and not too expensive. The compression problem is my main concern at this time.

What's your take on this situation?

This is my first post, but have been reading for a while. So..hiya guys and gals!

Aaron

Grady Clay · 11-10-2004, 11:11 AM

Aaron,

Welcome to the Forum! You are off to a right start.

The cylinder leak test should have told the mechanic where the problem lies; intake valve, exhaust valve, rings, or head leak.
Get the mechanic to investigate the valve clearance and if a cylinder stud is broken or the nut loose.
If OK, have them put it back together and you and the seller take it for a few hour spirited road trip. Max throttle and RPM with him driving. Buy him lunch and have your AAA card handy.

Don’t be afraid of buying a 911 with a known and fully diagnosed problem. The price of the car should reflect the cost of repair and more.

Best,
Grady

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 11:20 AM

Sound info...and duly noted. I'll be talking to the mechanic in a little while and will cover this with him. Thanks a bunch!

Aaron

Groesbeck Hurricane · 11-10-2004, 01:27 PM

Make sure the valve covers are taken off and the head studs are checked! This "could" be the cause of your issue and do spell out a re-build. I'm not saying this is it, but have it checked. It is very much worth paying for an oil change to have the valve covers taken off, especially the lower ones!!!

Please, do a search on PPI and read. This could save you issues in the future and ensure your Mechanic is taking care of you.

Thomas Owen · 11-10-2004, 01:35 PM

Don't be afraid to buy if the price can be adjusted, but above all, do not be afraid to walk away. The hardest stories here are those where the urge to buy overcame all else...
Good luck.

Grady Clay · 11-10-2004, 01:57 PM

Aaron,

Thomas is right on! Don’t be afraid of walking away. Even if you have spent many hundreds on PPIs, if the situation isn’t right – WALK.

The most powerful negotiating is when you rustle several thou of green backs under the seller’s nose and then put them back in your pocket as you go out the door.

Buy the 911 that YOU want with full knowledge of all its pros and cons. Whatever you buy, be prepared to spend more than you expected.

These are wonderful cars.

Best,
Grady

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 04:40 PM

Grady, David and Thomas...

I didn't ask to inspect the head studs. Grr. My bad.

Anyhow, the results are in from the mechanic (wish he would have known about or suggested the head stud inspection). He looked the car over and only found one alarming item....but we hope it will be a simple fix. So here's the rundown:

Negatives:

Fuel filter needs replaced. External pump is making some clatter.

Car has seen a *very* light accident on drivers side front (non-issue)

New alternator belt needed (current belt is loose and flopping a bit)

Needs front wheel bearings

Tie rods (good opportunity to upgrade to Turbo)

Compression/leakdown:

5 of 6 clyinders are checking out from 158-170 psi w/ max leakdown of 12%.....or should I say 88-90%???. Cylinder #4 is showing 68 psi and leaking down 39%. Owner says he's almost certain that he goofed on the exhaust valve adjustment and it's too tight, claims he can fix the problem.

Positives:

Brakes are in good repair

Floor pan is in wonderful shape

Engine is extremely dry (mechanic said it was almost unbelievable to see such an oil-free underside that HAS NOT been cleaned prior to inspection)

He was generally pleased with the overall condition

So now I wait for the owner to do his valve adjustment and then take it back to mechanic for another compression check...just to see if this is truly the cause of the problem. If the compression is bad, I'll be WALKING for sure on this car!

I was encouraged after listening to the mechanic describe the car. If the second check turns out fine...well, it's mine.

I'm going to attempt to attach a photo that I took a couple days ago when I brought it home during a test drive. Let me know what you think!

Aaron

Grady Clay · 11-10-2004, 05:09 PM

Aaron,

After all the service and adjustments are made, the 911 still needs a spirited road trip or some track time for the compression and cylinder leak tests to be accurate and valid. If they just adjust the valves and re-test, the results will probably be the same.

That looks like a nice car. The most important part is that it is what YOU want. The whole point here is for you to have all the information necessary to make an informed decision – right or wrong. Of course we all want to see you make the right decision, whatever that is.

Best,
Grady

ubiquity0 · 11-10-2004, 05:26 PM

I would probably quiz the owner about how long he has been driving on what he belives to be a tight valve. If its been awhile the valve head could be damaged.

Rot 911 · 11-10-2004, 05:40 PM

I agree that it could be a misadjusted valve causing the problem. After my first valve adjustment I had one cylinder with zero compression. I doubt that any damage has occurred. On the other hand, I would not buy this car WITHOUT the valve covers being removed and checking for broken head studs. If you are really interested in this car and the cylinder checks out after the valve adjustment, I would pay to have the valve covers removed and a check done for broken headstuds.

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 05:48 PM

Grady,

This IS the car I want...question is whether or not there is a faulty cylinder/valve of some sort. Believe me, I will walk in a heartbeat if it doesn't pass the second compression test. I'll be sure to tell the mechanic that the car needs a good ringing-out prior to the test....even though he already suggested that this is the way he tests. The mechanic isn't a Porsche specific guy, but he's no slouch by any means.

Interesting comment about the valve head dammage....I hadn't considerd that. I will certainly quiz.

Guys, thanks so very much for giving me things to think about that I didn't know. I'm prepared to take as much time as needed prior to plopping down the money to buy the car...so I'll certainly be back to share more info as this situation unfolds. I'm going in w/ my eyes wide open...or at least I'm trying.

Thanks to all!!!

Here's a couple more pics:

ubiquity0 · 11-10-2004, 05:50 PM

Aaron- That windshield rust is something of a concern. Its not normal for an SC IMO.

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 06:39 PM

That's the only questionable rust I can find on the car. It's not flaky or soft...and I'm confident that I can make it go away. Do you know something I don't know???

Aaron

stealthn · 11-10-2004, 07:11 PM

Aaron,

Not to poo poo you on the car, but my spidey sense is tingling.

What does "External pump is making some clatter" mean?

As well in the picture showing the rust, either it's the light or I see some touch up (the white paint is a different color around the door front and A pillar), Any small signs of rust require a more in-depth look at the car.
Ask to pull both headlights out and check the buckets. Also look very close inside the car around the drivers footwell if any water has got in.

Also, if it's an SC why does it have a Carrera badge?

There are alot of pristine SC's out there, just make sure you are happy that you know everything about the car before buying.

Good hunting

anthony · 11-10-2004, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Owner says he's almost certain that he goofed on the exhaust valve adjustment and it's too tight, claims he can fix the problem.

I would have had the seller pay for the mechanic to do the valve adjustment. If he did a hack job on the valve job last time I wouldn't want him to touch it again.

Quote:

I'll be sure to tell the mechanic that the car needs a good ringing-out prior to the test....even though he already suggested that this is the way he tests. The mechanic isn't a Porsche specific guy, but he's no slouch by any means.

I would really have any car you want to buy looked over by a Porsche 911 specialist. There's nothing like the experience of seeing these cars day in day out.

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 07:37 PM

I'm going to trust your Spidey senses and request some in-depth rust searching. Not only will I ask to look in the buckets, I think this will be a good opportunity to inspect around the battery for corrosion.

The owner mentioned the rust around the windshield seal to me from the very beginning and has even offered to touch it up. I felt it and looked at it very closely....it's not deep and looks like something that can be corrected with little effort. Had it been soft or crumbly I would be worried, but I'm not. The other areas of rust concern I can easily adress tomorrow or Friday.

Regarding the fuel pump, the mechanic said that a clogged fuel filter will put undue stress on the pump and cause it to make some noise....since I'm not a mechanic I can only trust his word and experience. After all, I paid him for his honest opinion which I feel I got.

Thanks for making me aware of these concerns....they WILL be addressed.

Oh, the Carrera badge, that's like putting an M3 badge on a 318....not acceptable!!!! I'll correct it if I buy the car.

Aaron

gldnedge · 11-10-2004, 07:45 PM

The current price on this car is 11,500. I feel as if I have room to wheel-n-deal at this time. If I can get the price down further, welp....there's my maintenance money if needed.

Aaron

Ray B · 11-11-2004, 04:32 AM

I agree with above posters concerning valves. Take the car and it's owner to YOUR shop and have the valves adjusted and the studs inspected. That way there is no he-said-she-said shen the broken stud falls to floor with the three of you watching. Check for rust in the forwardmost area of the rear wheel wells. SCs and Carreras tend to gather a bunch of road debris which holds moisture and you may not see it until rust appears at the bottom/aft area of the door openings.

Groesbeck Hurricane · 11-11-2004, 04:48 AM

Things to keep in mind:

surface rust can be fixed, but how do you know where the rust it?

Carrera badging is probably the PO wanting a whale tail on the car?

If the head studs fall out, this need not be the end of the story. The PO will have to have the motor re-built at some point soon. Take the cost of a reputable re-build and roll that into the cost of the car. To make the PO feel better, drop the car off and have the work started with them there. Do a search on this board for local shops or send to JW or Henry Schmidt or many of the other reputable people on the West Coast. a good re-build is probably better than 150,000 miles on the original. I'll let other chime in on this to flame me.

Fuel pumps are cheap and easy to replace. I would suggest this is a must. The SC will make noise before failure, and failure leaves you stranded.

IMHO, ditch the K&N.

Tie Rods, Wheel Bearings, these are normal maintenance things. I wonder that the PO did not pull normal maintenance?

Groesbeck Hurricane · 11-11-2004, 04:49 AM

Things to keep in mind:

surface rust can be fixed, but how do you know where the rust it?

Carrera badging is probably the PO wanting a whale tail on the car?

If the head studs fall out, this need not be the end of the story. The PO will have to have the motor re-built at some point soon. Take the cost of a reputable re-build and roll that into the cost of the car. To make the PO feel better, drop the car off and have the work started with them there. Do a search on this board for local shops or send to JW or Henry Schmidt or many of the other reputable people on the West Coast. a good re-build is probably better than 150,000 miles on the original. I'll let other chime in on this to flame me.

Fuel pumps are cheap and easy to replace. I would suggest this is a must. The SC will make noise before failure, and failure leaves you stranded.

IMHO, ditch the K&N.

Tie Rods, Wheel Bearings, these are normal maintenance things. I wonder that the PO did not pull normal maintenance?