Snow Tire vs All Season Question

[1982911sc]

I have posted this in the BMW Forum as well however it takes awhile to get a response on that board, I know some of you drive your 911 in the winter, and many of you have second (or third) winter drivers.....

Snow Tire vs All Season Queston

Hey all,
Question for any of you that may have experience with this....

I am about to enter my second winter (yuck!), with my 325i. The car did OK last year (in Michigan by the way). I had 150lbs of sand in the trunk on Contisport Contact all seasons. Would a set of dedicated snows be real big improvment? I wonder if it I will really see a big difference for whatever $$ I end up putting down? Any thoughts would be great! Thanks!

[Kevin Stewart]

Real snows all the way around will be a huge improvement, but this all depends on how far north you are, im at the indiana state line and we just use all season, we are only susposed to get 50 inches this winter, my daughter has a 85 celica gts rear drive, i was worried about her all the time, i went to a buddy at discount and decided a set of all seasons with the safety sipping would be a big improvement, she never got stuck onces, i was amazed with the sipping what it does, I would watch her pull away in 6 inches of snow and not hardly spin a tire, Kevin

[imcarthur]

I run a 323i with 4 snows. Very stable, good control. In my experience, in real winter conditions, 4 snows are the ONLY way to go.

I have also run several FWD Mazdas with 4 snows. My wife's Protege 5 is amazing with real snow tires all the way around.

Ian

[dean]

I like to call all seasons "no seasons" cause they suck. 4 snows are the way to go.

Dean

[Kevin Stewart]

it really depends on how much snow, the snow tire like the blizzack has a real soft compound that works really well in the snow and ice, but they wear fast on dry pavement, we have way more dry pavement then snow anymore where i live, and thats why we use all season, i would probably get one winter and they would be wore out, but if it snowed here like it did in say 1980, you bet i would have four snows, Kevin

[vanwyk4257]

I feel your pain. I'm probably going to bite the bullet and pick up a set for my car this winter as well. Go to "tires.com" for Discount Tire Direct. They have a decent selection, the prices are great and they will ship free to your door. We just got about 6 inches of snow in the Grand Rapids area yesterday, so I'm going to get mine soon. Good Luck!

[Quicksilver]

A snow and an all-season have really different purposes in life.

An all-season is designed with many small edges and sipes intended to give it more grip on frozen surfaces but this has been added to a basically 'summer' tire. The basic design of the tire is "the most siping that can be fit on a summer tire". Small tread blocks make the tread squirm and insure a lower level of grip and more slip angle. Basically not what you are looking for on anything this side of "your father's Oldsmobile". I'm not sure why anyone would buy them except for the "I want to ignore my car everyday even when I’m in it" types of drivers.

A snow tire is designed with lots of edges like an all-season but it will have larger voids designed to shed snow under the tread block. They tend to be noisier but if you are really on snow, who cares? The really good snows have a softer compound that gives better grip at low temperature.

One thing you can do to get more grip is to go with as narrow a tire as possible. When the snow is deep it helps you cut through snow instead of pushing it with the tire. When the snow isn't deep it gives you more pounds per square inch of force under the contact patch to help the tread push down through the fluff to whatever solid surface is below.

The biggest improvement you will get is from improvements in driving technique. On dry asphalt you will get the maximum grip at a fairly large percentage of slip. The grip doesn't drop by a huge percentage even if you have huge percentages of slip. We are talking about large quantities of force so the tire will distort by a large amount before the rubber starts to actually slide. When it does start to slide it is only lubricated by the little grains of rubber that are being torn off the tire so you still have a decent quantity of grip.

On slow and ice the level of grip plummets at extremely small quantities of slip. The grip is rather low to begin with so a tire won't generate more then a very small slip angle before it starts sliding. Once it is sliding the pressure and the friction of the sliding tire cause the surface of ice/snow in contact with the tire to melt while it is contact. We are talking about a couple thousandths for a fraction of a second. There is less of a tendency towards this, as it gets colder. That is why there is more grip at -50° then at 15° above zero. The slower you are going, the more time there is for this "micro melting" so it makes grip rise as you accelerate. At about 35+ MPH the car really hooks up.

With all of this in mind it is very important to be extremely sensitive to any tire slip, especially at lower speeds. With careful car control you can get more grip with a summer tire then an average driver gets with the best snow tire. Also it is good to learn to force one end of the car to lose grip so you can force the other end to hook up. Specifically you can momentarily break the rear tires loose to force a car to start turning to avoid lower speed "plowing in" type accidents.

The last part of training yourself is to learn serious car attitude control. In the slip-n-slide of winter it isn't reasonable to expect the car to always be glued to the ground so with that in mind you should try and learn to have some control in any attitude. The best training around is to take a front wheel drive car out to a frozen lake and get going about 35mph. Once you're going, lock the emergency brake and try to keep the car pointed forward and up to speed. The car will want to turn around backwards really bad but you can easily learn to control it. You will learn more car control in 30 minutes then you could learn in a lifetime of 'normal' driving. With careful car control you can get more grip with a summer tire then an average driver gets with the best snow tire.

God, I wish it would snow down here...

Wayne

[lendaddy]

I went from all-seasons to Blizzaks on my wifes Beamer a few years back. WOW, if you want some serious grip, you can't go wrong there. After all I heard about high wear I was worried, I shouldn't have been. They lasted two winters and still looked good when I sold the car.

In all seriousness, I remember laughing the difference was so big.

Now that I have the Audo Quattro I don't feel the need to go so crazy on the tire end though I probably still should.

[red-beard]

The Snow tires don't shed snow better, the tread locks the snow in. It then creates a snow to snow grip. The sipes (Small slits and voids in the tires) are for wet/icy conditions. I think Nokian makes the best snow tires. It has nylon fibers in the tread which act like mini studs on ice.

[Quicksilver]

Originally posted by red-beard
The Snow tires don't shed snow better, the tread locks the snow in. It then creates a snow to snow grip. The sipes (Small slits and voids in the tires) are for wet/icy conditions. I think Nokian makes the best snow tires. It has nylon fibers in the tread which act like mini studs on ice.

They sound like the sawdust tires that my elders used to talk about. It is interesting how good ideas disappear and then reappear in a different form.

Wayne

[notfarnow]

Lendady... remember that all wheel drive isn't going to help you when you're braking. Still need good tires.

Quicksilver...Good point about narrow tires... they "dig" instead of "float".

After the first snow each year, I take the car to an empty parking lot and accelerate/brake and turn to familiarize myself with how the car reacts. My girlfriend used to think I was being a cowboy. After she hit a snowbank, a garbage truck and a divider within a couple months, I insist that she spends some time in the parking lot too.

After the first snow there are always cars all along the side of the highway, wedged against the divider or in the ditch. It's a hoot to see so many SUV's like that. AWD and 4x4 don't negate the basic truth that something HEAVY is harder to STOP or CHANGE DIRECTIONS. I get especially annoyed when I'm being tailgaited, in the snow, by an SUV. There is no way they can stop as quickly as I can.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by notfarnow
Lendady... remember that all wheel drive isn't going to help you when you're braking. Still need good tires.

Yep, that's why I said:

I don't feel the need to go so crazy on the tire end though I probably still should.

She needs new skins anyway and just this morning I had a flat and have the spare on anyway. Good timing?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by dean
I like to call all seasons "no seasons" cause they suck. 4 snows are the way to go.

Dean

Dean is right (as usual). Snow tires make a huge difference. Last winter a couple of my friends and I attempted to go out to breakfast after a big snow. We took his Audi Quattro with all seasons but we had to turn around and take my 944 with snow tires instead. Just a night and day difference.

I shouldn't smile as drive my 944 with snow tires past a 4x4 off in the ditch but I can't help myself.

In defense of the clueless 4x4 owners, I think the 4WD masks the "it's slippery" clues because you seemly have plenty of traction. It's not until they hit the snow bank that they think "So that's why everyone was going so slow."

If it's a budget thing, at least get them for your wife's car.
-Chris

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
In defense of the clueless 4x4 owners, I think the 4WD masks the "it's slippery" clues because you seemly have plenty of traction. It's not until they hit the snow bank that they think "So that's why everyone was going so slow."

That's what I've always found... 4x4 is great for getting you moving, so everything feels normal. But it's when you go to stop that you notice things ain't quite right. Overboosted Power stering/brakes numb the "feel" of heavy SUV's too, so it can be real tricky to notice when you are starting to lose traction.

[Kevin Stewart]

im still saying that most of you have blizzacks or super snows up north, if there is only going to be 50 inches of snow in his area al winter good allseasons will work, and trust me discounts sipping of the tires work i felt the same as most you before i did it to my daughters car, we just had 5 inches yesterday no more insite for the next ten days, with my all seasons i was driving around people with out them , but the snow is gone today off the street, i feel super snows are for an area that have snow all or most of the time, but i did see poeple driving yesterday that should have all snows, really they should have stayed home, Kevin

[KTL]

I think winter tires are a good investment when you consider the cost spread over a number of years. I've had my winters for going on the fourth season now. They still have lots of life left in them after maybe 7,500-10,000 miles on them. Initial cost was $400 with tires, steel wheels and wheel covers. I have the winters on from maybe Dec. thru March at the latest. Since I only drive ~7,000-8,000 mi./yr., they're gonna last me a long time.

I have a set of the Micheline Arctic Alpins on my AWD Turbo Laser and they are significant difference in wintery weather performance compared to the all-season M+S Dunlop D60 A2 tires. I'm sure I could get by without the Michelins and just be more cautious with the all-season Dunlops (which are junk by the way, i'd never recommend them or their evolutions) like Quicksilver/Wayne mentioned. But the added benefit of the winters is hard to pass up.

The 5 inches that we got is the same that Kevin Stewart got in IN. It was some sloppy, wet snow that stuck to the pavement quite well. That was all I needed to go in the shed and bring out the winter setup. The grip you get is pretty amazing. While still being cautious of course, you can drive normally. No feathering the throttle to accel., no early braking. Making turns requires some sensibility, but that's to be expected. Winters are not like velcro. You can still get the car to slide, fishtail, or whatever. Yet the car is much more controllable. I originally had a set of Eagle GT's on the car when I got it. The tires made the car feel like driving a Camaro in the snow. I couldn't start, stop, turn........ Just goofing around I actually spun the car around with little effort at all. The switch to the winters was incredible. With them, you have to drive like a real nutcase maniac to get the car out of control.

I'm all for winter tires. I love 'em. I say make life easier for yourself and get a spare set of wheels on which to mount the winters. You should be able to find a rough set of BMW wheels no problem for cheap. I'd opt for the 15 inchers too. Cheaper wheels and cheaper tires. Check out the wheel & tire classifieds on www.bimmerforums.com. That classifieds section is very active.

While i'm not a big fan of the all-season Dunlops, i'd give the Dunlop Graspics a try for the winter. They're a bit more cost effective than Bridgestone Blizzaks or Michelin. Hankook's Icebear W300 is worth a look too, as they make solid, affordable tires. Toyo's Observe winter tire would be one to look at also. Lots of alternatives to the pricey brands out there.

[rzepko6194]

I use Bridgestone Blizzaks on my Audi Allroad. The OEM all season tires would keep me on the road and stuck behind the snowplow doing 25 mph. The Blizzaks allow me to blast pass the plow on unplowed side of the roadway. That's the difference between all-season and snows.

The P-car hibernates....

[1982911sc]

Hey everyone, thanks for all of the advice on this...from the feedback I have recieved I am going to look for a good set of used snows for my E-46!. If anyone has any that they are looking to sell, send me a PM. Thanks!

[1982911sc]

OK, An update...I purchased four rims with snow tires off of Ebay for $250.00 One season old, like new! They are Fondmetal FI rims with Yokahama Iceguard tire. The guy actually live less than two blocks from me.

Well as many of you know we got dumped with over 9" of snow last night in Michigan (and many other places!!). I took the car out this morning to really test how this new setup would work, and I have to tell you it is an incredible difference!!!

Not once, did I ever feel like I was sliding or losing control of the car! Compared to the stock Contis where I would be sliping and sliding all over the place, these tires just stuck like glue. From a start, on packed or loose snow. Even ice was not too bad. My only problem at times was the ground clearance, the snow was so high in spots I was almost snowplowing! But the tires just kept biting with confidence. Thanks for all of the replies, I would highly recomend snows if you live in a mixed climate.

I read an article in my last local BMW newsletter, it basically says that all season tires and almost like no season tires....They are not great at performance driving or on snow. I am now in the process of picking out some cool summer hi-po tires to replace the all seasons that where on the car prior!

[tabascobobcat]

Good choice. The cost of 4 snow tires in less than most insurance deductibles.
I swear by them. Just sold 4 that didn't fit my cars yesterday during the peak of our snow storm (we got 14" +drifts). I work with the guy that bought them. It took him 35 minutes (18 mile trip) more to get to my house to pick them up than it did me me.
Merry Christmas