QN: Lowering a 911 engine relative to the body?

[obrut]

Is it possible to lower the engine in a 911 relative to the body without upsetting too many things?

Why? Just wondering if a 911 motor could be made to fit the (presumably) 912 powered custom 911 Speedster in the attached pics.

[fastfredracing]

The first thing that comes to my mind would be the shift shaft where it enters the body. You do not really have a whole lot of room to move there. Be lucky to get a 1/2 inch there

[obrut]

Thanks Fred. Thought as much.

I nearly bid on that car on ebay a few years back - I think whoever did the bodywork did a great job.

[proffighter]

I lowered the engine on my 930 about 10mm. Do not wanted lower more because of:

-Ground clearance
-Sway bar clearance to the transmission
-Engine bay seal would lost contact to sheets

Shift shaft would allow about one inch... at least on a 930 with 4-speed tranny

[PcarPhil]

I would think a 911 engine would fit in that without lowering the engine and trans. But yes in a typical 911 you can lower the trans about 1/2" (using spacers and good sport mounts eg. Wevo) and lower the engine about 1" (also using spacers and good sport mounts).

Many 3.6 conversions are set up in a lower than stock configuration.

For a street car I'm not a fan of doing this. Lowering the engine 1" exposes a lot of the engine under the bodywork (cosmetics), especially on an early car, and also brings the $$$$ engine closer to the ground, losing ground clearance.

Of course this mod lowers the center of gravity...which is a great thing!

[Wil Ferch]

What is the premise of the question?....I'm a bit confused. Even in the early days, a side-by-side model range ( 912 / 911 ) was built by Porsche that did *not* alter the installed "height" of the engine...as it relates to the engine's clutch centerline.

My point?.....why do you think the installed centerline is different for a 912 vs 911 powered car?

[vintagecarlover]

i like the looks of the car but kinda looks like it should be a ft shorter in length behind the doors, ya know? any more pics or stories on the car or build?

[Grady Clay]

What powers the car now? A flat VW Type-4?
If so, those can be made very powerful.

Looking at the pictures, I don’t think any amount of adjustment could fit a 911 engine.
The issues are the top of the fan housing and the carb/MFI/CIS intakes. DME might be made to clear but not the fan.

A ‘straight-on’ side view with a telephoto would allow superposition of a 911 configuration engine and judge clearance better.

Given that it is already somewhat ‘modified’, I think it is possible to graft parts of a 914 from the 914 firewall and backs of the 911 front seats to build a mid-engine. Any 911 engine would fit in this configuration.
This could also move the rear wheels rearward, improving handling and appearance.

That is a very nice looking modification.

Best,
Grady

[kanadary]

you can definitely get a high hp vw engine with abit of massaging.

[tcar]

That's a SWB (short wheelbase) car.

Think Grady is correct, but to move the wheels rearward, you'd be into some bodywork at the wheel arches.

Pretty car.

[obrut]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

What is the premise of the question?....I'm a bit confused. Even in the early days, a side-by-side model range ( 912 / 911 ) was built by Porsche that did *not* alter the installed "height" of the engine...as it relates to the engine's clutch centerline.

My point?.....why do you think the installed centerline is different for a 912 vs 911 powered car?

Hi Wil,

Nope, not a centerline issue - the issue is the rear bodywork of the car in the pics looks lower than in a stock 911, and I doubt a 911 fan would fit under it. I've been contemplating an early 911 Speedster project for a long time and think the bodywork on this car is very good (even better than the Townes Speedster). However, I would prefer to run a 911 engine and was concerned that it may not fit.

I think the induction could be made to fit - or as a last resort bring the carb stacks through the bodywork in something like a 908 style.


Hi Grady,

These are the only pics I saved from the ebay auction - would love to find a side shot for reference. I really think they got the body right with this one. That said, I think my 964 Speedster is a great piece of design too (not all agree) but I think this 912 captures something of the 356 Speedster style very well.



I wish now I had bought it when it was for sale... Easy to say in hindsight.

[Grady Clay]

Ryan,

What did it sell for?
Does anyone know where it went?

Best,
Grady

[Wil Ferch]

OK....I get it..... thanks

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by proffighter

I lowered the engine on my 930 about 10mm. Do not wanted lower more because of:

-Ground clearance
-Sway bar clearance to the transmission
-Engine bay seal would lost contact to sheets

Shift shaft would allow about one inch... at least on a 930 with 4-speed tranny

Not sure of other consequences, but each has a solution:

-Ground clearance - Yes, but same as lowering the vehicle. In a purpose track vehicle, this is less of an issue than a road car.

-Sway bar clearance to the transmission - insert spacer between chassis and sway bar or relocate sway bar chassis mounting brackets.

-Engine bay seal would lost contact to sheets - Could be mitigated by ovalizing the mount holes for the metal shrouds and/or adding add'l sealing material.

Shift shaft clearance: Notch tunnel opening (not a structural element) to provide more clearance for lowered shift shaft.

I believe Jack Olsen (and others) performed some if not all the above years ago.

Sherwood

[proffighter]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

Not sure of other consequences, but each has a solution:

-Ground clearance - Yes, but same as lowering the vehicle. In a purpose track vehicle, this is less of an issue than a road car.

-Sway bar clearance to the transmission - insert spacer between chassis and sway bar or relocate sway bar chassis mounting brackets.

Done, but reduces clearance to ground as well

-Engine bay seal would lost contact to sheets - Could be mitigated by ovalizing the mount holes for the metal shrouds and/or adding add'l sealing material.

not much gain here, but worth a try if needed

Shift shaft clearance: Notch tunnel opening (not a structural element) to provide more clearance for lowered shift shaft.

Engine would touch ground almost earlier (at least on my 930)

I believe Jack Olsen (and others) performed some if not all the above years ago.

Of course, it's cheap handling improvement

Sherwood

Can add pics if wanted. pics of homemade tranny support already posted, search my threads

[Fleming]

As just a quick overlay to think about the clearance between the hood line and the engine components I've borrowed (from Jack Olsons recent car balance post) this side view cutaway.

If the hood line is drawn even close to that fabulous proportioned 912 it looks like the fan housing, carbs and air cleaner would need major concessions to allow a 911 engine to fit in there.
Lowering of about 2" would be needed.
Or engineer twin fans like the 901 prototype engine study (or Tatra), or a flat fan like the Corvair or 917.

Lower air intakes would be needed or use creative Gurney bumps to give clearance. But that would really mess up that wide flat hood panel that the car now has.

I think a lot of us have starred at this silver car and dreamed what it would be like to have 911 power in a top less car....nice long winter thoughts.

[Laneco]

I realize this is horrifically sacreligious, and some of you may actually want to burn me at the stake for this comment, but how about this idea.

Make it mid-engined. It's a signficant structural change and that vestibule rear seat/package area would obviously disappear. But the drivetrain would fit in that direction. Provide a removable access panel from the passenger compartment to service the engine/fan/alternator.

I realize there's not alot of the 912 left when you do that, and I am aware of how much structure disappers and must be replaced. As clever as the person who built this car was, someone else could build one as a middie and use a 6. Keep that great long line from the back of the seats to the rear of the car untouched. It would be lovely.

angela

[914/6]

personally I think stan townes got it right.
stan townes 1967 911 speedster

[Flieger]

I agree with those suggesting to make it mid-engine, like 356-001.

[obrut]

Originally Posted by Grady Clay

Ryan,

What did it sell for?
Does anyone know where it went?

Best,
Grady

I think it went for low 20's a few years back. Don't know where - would love to find it ...

I think the use of other 911 panels like the roof section for the rear cowl and the bonnet for the engine lid was done really well.

Reminds me a little of this 356 Roadster Special:
My new "special" roadster