Carrera RS Values...

[9XI]

Life has been very good to me lately. I am dreaming of paying to have a genuine RS restored for me.

My dream is a genuine RS donor tub, with title. The car could be a strip down candidate or a complete daily driver RS? I am fairly close to LA and I bet there are some beating around down there. Jack, do you know any, or do you see them sometimes?

The second part of the project would be to restore the driver RS to immaculate RGruppe specs -- meaning driving condition.

One idea is to "borrow" from a hot 911 (RGruppe) car -- Perfect RS clone. The genuine RS and the clone RS could merge into a very clean and fast genuine RS. What do the best RS clones go for?

I have a tweaked RS America. It is almost stock, and passes smog just fine. I am thinking of adding a genuine RS. I would like a ride in a real RS some time soon before I get too committed. I know that Mobius has one here in the bay area that would be perfect. I PM'd him. Does anyone bring RSs on the Porsche tours around the Bay Area? I could even take the RSA and trade off. Whatever. I just have never been in a well loved driver RS. That is my dream car!

One owner's comment above about worrying about breaking the original case is RIGHT on the money. The tub can be repaired properly, if necessary. We can even be heros and rescue a crippled RS. That is my idea. Take a complete, crippled (even wrecked?) RS, restore the tub to original or better condition, store the numbers matching real RS stuff, buy a hot RS clone, transfer the RS clone stuff to the real RS. Very fast, no guilt, real Carrera RS. I want one.

Feedback or leads?

Can you imagine riding around in a hot rod genuine RS?



Whose car is this one by the way?



This post is 100% serious. Any leads or help appreciated.

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by 9XI

Life has been very good to me lately. I am dreaming of paying to have a genuine RS restored for me.

This post is 100% serious. Any leads or help appreciated.

My observation is that you are a little late to the party. Not impossible, mind you, but indeed an exceedingly tough proposition. The skeletons of RSes the world over have been picked to the point that there are more RSes today than there were in original production. There are a few cars out there that even purport to have the same VIN. Some are even grafted from pieces of the same mangled chassis and resultantly compete for the same provenance.

Cars with legit VINs in need of resto are pretty much non-existent; it's like finding a 250 SWB Ferrari or Gullwing in a barn: possible, but rarer than hen's teeth. Did you see the beat up RS found recently in Beirut? It had a bomb dropped on it and sat hidden in its bunker for nearly 20 years! CRAZY stuff and BIG bucks. Let's just say that there aren't many "beating around"SoCal. If so, they are almost invariably in collections. You hear rumors, but those are ghosts...

With anything with a real RS VIN starting above $100K and a well sorted RS of any provenance going for over $400K, you can see why. Can I imagine driving around in a real hot-rod RS? The answer by most here is "Yes, every day". I wish I'd bought one when they were $60K; it will be a while before I can buy one for the heavy side of six figures. If the Gods smile on me it will happen. If not, oh well.

As far as RS clones, the best I have ever seen was recently for sale for $85K and was worth every penny. I think it is already sold.

If you can pull the cash today, you should by a nice RS. They are great cars. But be forewarned that searching for the "Hidden RS" is equivalent to running after Brigadoon.

Best of luck. Honestly.

[richde]

Originally Posted by mobius911

My guess is that the current exchange rates will contribute to the repatriation of many cars that made it to the US in the 80's.

That is definitely happening right now. I just missed out on a car by a couple days due to a German buyer. It really IS the same numerical number in Euros (@1.45+/$) for a car in Germany as in the US in Dollars and this is just for SC's and 3.2 Carreras. I recently heard that it's becoming a "thing to do" if a German to go to the states on holiday to buy a car.

Depending if my sale goes through today, and how shipment and importation goes, I'd consider getting into the business myself.

[Vintage Racer]

Originally Posted by kenikh

.....you should by a nice RS. They are great cars. But be forewarned that searching for the "Hidden RS" is equivalent to running after Brigadoon.

I agree.

I think one should always just buy the nicest car that they can find. I think it is impossible to find a RS (or any early 911), and pay someone to restore it for you for less than the price of an already restored car.

A RS isn't really considered rare with a production run of 1580 (~10% of 1973 911 production). Six years ago, you could find RSs for $50-$65K (RSL).

Good luck with your search.

[jkarolyi]

Yep, almost all of my longhoods end up going to Germany or another Euro country. They are willing to pay far more than most California or other US buyers. You've got to remember that for Europeans, a '73 RS is like a Hemi Cuda or a tri-power GTO to Americans...this is the car European boomers dreamed about when they were kids. If they can't afford one, a longhood T,E,or S will do, much like everyday Tempests or Cudas fetch good money today.

Glad to see this thread revived. Real RSs are trading close to $200,000 these days! Wonder if Wayne is still predicting a fall to the $50-60,000 days.

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by carreraplanes

Hmmm! Hard to predict and I have a background in economics!!! All that one can really say is that the exchange will fluctuate. The dollar may have further to go down and yes it will rebound. By how much and when are the only questions and that is not really an answer!!!

The reality is that generaly cars (new and used) have always been cheaper in the US even going back to the 70's when I first became interested. I don't think there has ever been a period when the reverse was true. Consumer goods have always been cheaper in the US. You pay more for health and education though. Things we take somewhat for granted in the UK. However I think that when you total all the out goings up that there is not such a great difference on either side of the atlantic. I have been to your great country a couple of times and would hope to do so again. We also have several American relations. I have often compared notes. I'm not sure that the average total purchasing power of the average Joe is that different on either side of the atlantic, just different proportions. It is probably just more marked at the extremes of abject wealth and poverty.

Although the dollar exchange is poor for you at the moment, I think it was nearer 3 to the UK pound during the '70s. This does not bide well for those of you aspiring to own an old 911 in the states though.

However recently muscle car values have skyrocketed in the states and in spite of the poor dollar value many are being repatriated to the US. Perhaps all these lovely classic cars just yearn to return to the place of their berth when they get old!!!

Keith.

we pay more for health and education? not true mate. Time value of money... if you are getting taxed (to death in the UK in my view) at the time of earnings and then you get marginal services 'later' that doesn't equal 'cheaper'. the transfer of wealth via gov't has NEVER been economically viable. That said, the US is heading that very direction that Europe has long since gone down.

back on topic

the bottomline here is that Wayne is right, it is a supply and demand situation. These cars in the type of condition that guys like Don demand are rare and becoming more so. Therefore they demand a premium. I can't imagine that ever changing. On that basis, clones don't impact value.

[88 Club Sport]

It is not just longhoods that are experiencing this. During the past 24 months, the US and Euro 911 Club Sports have seen similar increases. US CS's (there are only 28) are seeing $65 - $75k and one very low mileage car has sold for quite a bit more than $100k. British Euro CS's are seeing similar trends with the latest going for over 50,000 pounds.....$100k.

I did not buy mine as an investment. I take it up into the mountains and drive it hard any chance I can. She's been on the track a couple of times but I'll be the first to admit that I do not go 10/10ths and when the girls bring thier bikes/scooters etc. into the garage I worry more. Not so with the 78scarrera

I cannot think of a better situation....an asset that is increasing in value that puts a smile on my face every time I go into the garage. It puts a bigger smile on my face when it is boucing off redline. Ask 69Sman and Rennman….both own RS’s and have owned CS’s and I think they would agree tht the CS is a blast to get sideways.

[Komenda Fan]

I don't think things are out of whack for the current market, the 73 RS has always been considered a (the?) highwater mark for the 911 range, and in reality, they sell for less than some of the new machines. I know which I would rather have.

[K. Roman]

Tulip Mania.

[seeker23]

I'm seeing indications that the bubble has burst.

Prices are not going to plummet, but more likely come back to earth.

Especially in the U.S. with the Sub-Prime market woes and home prices taking a dive.

The 911 craze, along with the muscle car craze, was getting ridiculous- much like the baseball card craze during the 80's. ( same cards can be bought today for a fraction of what they were going for during the hysteria ).

In two recent high visibility auctions the '73 RS's failed to sell.

IMO it's wishful thinking on the part of investors and owners to claim that RS's will not or cannot depreciate.

"Soft economy hurts vintage auto sales

There is no doubt the rather bizarre economic conditions in both the United States and Canada are having an effect on the old-car hobby. Sales of classic cars for the past year or so have been rather flat and the reasons have not been that easy to understand, especially when classic car auctions are still a feeding frenzy.

Auction sales represent only a very tiny portion of the old cars that are on the market at any one time, and old cars just have not been selling all that well for the past year or so.

This may be due in part to some of the ridiculous prices being asked by some owners because of what they have seen sell at auction, but even reasonably priced cars languish unsold and with diminishing interest from buyers.

Three or four years ago, I rarely had good quality classic cars sit on the floor for very long. Two years ago, I started to notice a bit of a slump. It wasn't dramatic, but it was clearly slower.

Last summer, however, old-car sales became moribund.

The slowdown is in its infancy at this point and it will take a couple of years for collector car prices to fall dramatically. It is definitely a buyer's market. It will be interesting to see if this deceleration will affect the collector car auctions over the next year. I am sure many of them feel a sense of invulnerability, but as with anything that is inflated, the pop may be quite ear-shattering."

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=796302a2-0eb7-4a0e-a0ba-6456b13942f9

[dd74]

Originally Posted by jkarolyi

Yep, almost all of my longhoods end up going to Germany or another Euro country. They are willing to pay far more than most California or other US buyers. You've got to remember that for Europeans, a '73 RS is like a Hemi Cuda or a tri-power GTO to Americans...this is the car European boomers dreamed about when they were kids. If they can't afford one, a longhood T,E,or S will do, much like everyday Tempests or Cudas fetch good money today.

Glad to see this thread revived. Real RSs are trading close to $200,000 these days! Wonder if Wayne is still predicting a fall to the $50-60,000 days.

Jay - what about mid-year '74-'77 real and cloned Carreras? Any idea what they are going for?

[kenikh]

Originally Posted by seeker23

In two recent high visibility auctions the '73 RS's failed to sell.

Yes indeed. While I think they are pulling back a bit, the point made earlier still stands: uncovered RSes basically no longer exist due to the rapid rise in desirability.

[jasam]

Originally Posted by K. Roman

Tulip Mania.

Agree

[fryardds]

Seeker,

I agree with many of your observations. The incredibly irresponsible actions of our Federal Reserve, the housing bust, along with a consumer recession will lead to much lower equity prices in '08. As a result Collector car prices will retreat from these levels, IMHO. Although I do wonder if Europe, Asia and Australia will suffer the same economic pull back as the US? I also think the $ will continue to be very weak so these factors may continue to hold up classic sports car prices a while longer. It will be interesting to watch it continue to play out.

Originally Posted by seeker23

In two recent high visibility auctions the '73 RS's failed to sell.

Yes, as far as I know there have only been two '73 Carrera RS cars offered up for auction in '07 so far.

8/17/07 Bonham's Monterey, CA
Ex-Otis Chandler Carrera RS 9113600866 sold for $271,000
(this car was sold at the Otis Chandler collection auction in Fall of '06 for approx. $181,000)

2/19/07 Artcurial-Breist-Poulain Le Fur Paris, France
9113600179 was a no sale at $170,300

Is there another Carrera RS that failed to sell at auction this year?

[fryardds]

Originally Posted by mobius911

So is this another bubble? Hard to say (although the cooling in the American muscle car market illustrates that prices can drop). I can say that as a "regular guy" with a car now valued in the stratosphere (and way beyond my means to buy one today), I do worry- do I have it insured for the correct amount; what if I get rear-ended and the original case is destroyed, etc.). But after having it so long it's basically part of the family, and I still enjoy driving it and maintaining it, and I try to keep in perspective what I paid for and not what it's worth.

And I still love that amazing kick in the ass from 4500 to redline!

Jeff

Amen Jeff!

I certainly haven't owned one as long as you have but I also try to keep it in perspective as what I paid in 2003. I have two good friends who have original Shelby Cobras and they have kept their cars through several cycles now because they love to drive/race them as well as have them in the garage to look at. I have the same mind set. I will take good care of the car and enjoy it for many, many years to come reguardless of the market cycles.

[seeker23]

Originally Posted by fryardds

as far as I know there have only been two '73 Carrera RS cars offered up for auction in '07 so far.

8/17/07 Bonham's Monterey, CA
Ex-Otis Chandler Carrera RS 9113600866 sold for $271,000
(this car was sold at the Otis Chandler collection auction in Fall of '06 for approx. $181,000)

2/19/07 Artcurial-Breist-Poulain Le Fur Paris, France
9113600179 was a no sale at $170,300

Is there another Carrera RS that failed to sell at auction this year?

In the auction I was remembering the car was "withdrawn"-

Coy's auction:

http://www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/880934726/

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally Posted by fryardds

Amen Jeff!

I will take good care of the car and enjoy it for many, many years to come reguardless of the market cycles.

Then you are on solid ground.

Collector cars go up, and down. Remember the speedster runup in the early 90's which later declined. It's hard to imagine that current RS prices haven't topped. A recession will do serious damage imho.

The frenzy is always driven by speculators, and the market always returns to the enthusiasts.

[57_300SL]

fryardds, very interesting figures. These are publicly available figures on '73 RS sales. What is the unknown is the price these cars that are trading hands in private sales. I had a very early, very original RST that I sold for good money a few years ago. I heard it resold in '07 for $300K +. If true, the seller made a very good investment. It is always hard to predict the market. A friend of mine who makes a living in this business said that the best way to ensure a good investment is to buy originonal cars of very limited production and special interest (he's done pretty well).

[mobius911]

Had to resurrect this one!

This thread started with Wayne's reference to a Sports Car Market article. I'm too cheap to subscribe, but I do get the weekly emails, and the most recent one had an RS valuation that caused me to resurrect this thread.

Here's a snippet from the email:

"Featured Collectible
1973 Porsche Carrera RS Touring

Jim Schrager takes a look at a 1973 Porsche Carrera RS Touring that sold at $425,575 at the Bonhams Retromobile sale on February 9. Although produced as a standard road car with the "Touring" package, this car had no options, and its subsequent race history made this price market correct. "

That's an amazing amount of money. Of course the sale was in Europe so in euros it's only mildly obscene. BTW, the chassis is number 1115, and the car has a replacement motor (as is common with race cars). Also, you can see the full article by registering at the Sports Car Market website. Jim has written a very interesting article including the car's racing exploits, which were pretty impressive. Even F1 is referenced; Jean Alesi's dad did the resto...

Jeff

[JV911SYDNEY]

this is typical of recent 74-75 carrera sales in aus

http://www.carpoint.com.au/used-car/PORSCHE/911CARRERA/Victoria/csn5553863.aspx

73 RSs are $200 +++