can my 70 ever ride like a 993?

brittbolen · 03-31-2005, 07:07 PM

There is a used 1996 993 Targa for sale around here, and I drove it. This was my first time driving a 911 that was not my 70E.

Needless to say it was pretty freaking sweet. I'm not sure I'd trade if for my 70.

It was very quite, very smooth, very torquey, you could drive it at 1500rpm in 3rd, which is definitly not something my 70 can do. I love the look of the 993, and it was a targa with the big glass top which was very trick.

One thing that I liked about this 993 was how solid it felt. My 70 always feels like it's 'floating'. The car feels pretty light and definitly doesn't feel securely planted to the road like the 993. Especially around a rough corner I don't feel very confident.

Having driven only my 70 I'm not sure if this is indicative of the early cars, or if my car just needs some adjusting. The car no longer has the boge self-leveling struts, at some point (pre-85) the front suspension was upgraded with 'S' level stuff including a through the body anti-roll bar, and the S calipers.

Would lowering the car help? Perhaps my struts are adjustable (i should check)? stiffer anti-roll bars? Would moving from 14" rims to 16" rims make a big difference?

If anyone is looking for a 993 I'll post the details in the for-sale forum as I, alas, can't fit their price into my budget....

Britt

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

Short answer, no. They are very different cars. But yours shouldn't feel floaty.

Lowering, good shocks, good tires, corner balance and alignment should make your car feel more like a go cart

On older cars the rubber suspension bushings usually need replacement as well.

brittbolen · 03-31-2005, 07:43 PM

goes to garage with tape measure and wayne's book...

yes, the front is an inch high.

Thats something to start with...

Britt

Porschekid962 · Porschekid962's Garage

I have been bombing around in my bosses 98 993S the past few weeks and its sweet. The suspension is completely different, coilovers all around, different geometry, kinematic links and on and on. I think Kerry or is it Kelly Morse has a car on his website to which they welded up a 993 rear suspension. Also take into account the difference in weight between the two cars, this has a big impact on ride quality and road feel.

Like Bill said a good alignment makes a huge difference in the way your car handles. My dad has a 74 911S with some goodies. The before and after on the suspension was night and day, went from stock to new Bilsteins, Elephant polybronzes, strut brace, alignment and corner balance with a good deal of lowering. The car is very tight and reacts very well with plenty of feedback. Still though we are talking two different beasts, TBars versus coilovers and 25 years of development. Embrace the lightness!

brittbolen · 03-31-2005, 07:56 PM

indeed. perhaps I'll move the suspension stuff up the project list a bit...

brittbolen · 04-08-2005, 10:09 PM

I'm trying to decide where to start on my suspension. My goal here is make the car not 'float', and not scare me in a bumpy corner where the car is really disconnected with the road.

I've checked my shocks, they seem and should be fine. They are vintage 1988 with only 17000 miles. Koni inserts up front ($200 each in 1988) and Boge Turbo Gas Shocks in the back ($100) (yay old reciepts).

My car is a 70E but it has an S front suspension including S brakes koni struts and a through-the-body sway bar.

There is no rear sway bar, that was messed up and removed (according to receipts).

The tires are new 14" 205/70 BF Goodrich T/A Tractions... I have 16" wheels too but I'd hate to just replace the new 14 tires already (plus my bug needs tires)

I don't think bushings are what I need to solve this problem (my mechanic aggress).

The ride height is normal in the back, but for whatever reason is at least an inch high in the front.

The tie-rod ends were "refreshed" not all that long ago. Though I can wiggle the wheel at highway speeds without having the car move...

I do not know when the car was last aligned.

I'm thinking of lowering the front end to the correct height, and having it aligned. Nothing else, and try driving that.

What do people think? Is there something else obvious I could be missing?

thanks,

britt

randywebb · 04-08-2005, 10:24 PM

replace every piece of rubber in the suspension

then reset the ht. and get it balanced out & aligned

air-cool-me · 02:32 AM

Quote:

The tires are new 14" 205/70 BF Goodrich T/A Tractions

i don't know if anyone will agree.... but...

i have never operated a car with 70 series tires and have it NOT feel floaty...

rfuerst911sc · 04-09-2005, 02:24 AM

Go to some PCA or SCCA events and talk to guys with the same era cars you'll get lots of ideas.Also the feedback from here is spot on.I'm not sure how you think that your 35 year old rubber suspension bushings are not part of the problem,how long do you expect them to last? I think lowering the front end is a start and those tires have to go in my opinion.There are small baby steps you can take to make the car better but in the end a complete rebuild is what it probably needs,after 35 years it deserves it.

Reg · 04-09-2005, 03:28 AM

...the front end ride height is the easiest to adjust as well.

beepbeep · 03:55 AM

Sure it can, you just need to be little creative

stlrj · 04-09-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

but for whatever reason is at least an inch high in the front.

Since the front fenders are cut aboout 2" higher than the rear you are fooled into thinking the front is higher when, in fact, your nose is still pointed down.

That's why the factory has never taken it's measurements from the fender openings but from torsion bar and wheel centers which most feel is too difficult to do or beyond their capabilities since it involves converting mm to inches.

Cheers,

Joe

Shaun @ Tru6 · 04-09-2005, 08:41 AM

I've got a 69E and can tell you that a lot of it is your tires. I've driven it both with 185/70/14s and 205/55/15s and the difference is night and day.

That said, everything above applies equally. No one piece of your suspension is going to work well unless all of them are working together.

Right now I am collecting parts for my suspension rebuild which will be:
21/26 bars
Front Koni's rebuilt to match
trubo tierods
Rear Bilstein HDs
Rear adjustable springplates
205/55/15 F
225/50/15 R
lowered

I'm riding on the 14's now and it's scary. Can't wait to get the Koni's redone and find some 21's.

brittbolen · 04-09-2005, 09:28 AM

Stirj, i measured the front both ways, i ended up with about with about 80mm difference between torsion bar, and wheel centers which makes it about an inch high.

granted i did my conversions the lazy way, putting my inch tape measure next to my meter stick...

B

brittbolen · 04-26-2005, 02:07 PM

Just got the car back from the shop, and what a difference just a few little things can make...

Turbo Tie Rods
Correct the front ride height
check all the shocks made sure they weren't sticking
full alignment
corner balance

The car handles *MUCH* better, and I couldn't be happier.

Corner balance numbers for those who care....

--Front--
450 454
673 664

weight was 2240 (but this might have been with the front and rear glass out, chuck couldn't remember.)

The alignment was pretty bad to start with, i had rear toe-out and no to-in up front. Also 0 camber.

Car was more than an inch high up front.

Also got a new windshield and dash while i was there, I can drive into a sunset and actually see something besides the pitting in my windshield.

This thing is really starting to become car-like

at this rate i'm going to have to start on the body work soon... anybody got a passenger fender for a 70?

Britt

FrayAdjacent911 · 04-26-2005, 02:49 PM

Are passenger side fenders for '70s rare or something?? Some moron put a 74 fender on that side on my car!

I think I'm gonna just get the fiberglass fenders from Rennspd.com, along with the carrera style front and rear bumpers. I already have the ducktail.

brittbolen · 04-26-2005, 02:53 PM

I think the 69-73 fenders are all the same... I just need that one, mine is half bondo

I think the rest of my bodywork issues won't require new sheet metal. well maybe a hood, as mine is a bit rotten around the rubber bumpers at the end.

Britt

Dan Morton · Dan Morton's Garage

If you add a front S spoiler you will feel a big difference too, will feel more planted. I have a '70 T and added the S spoiler and duck tail and it really feels more planted than before. I'm still running 185/70's though and can't wait to upgrade to 16's. I've since removed the ducktail and haven't noticed too much of a difference without it.

-Dan
1970 911T

randywebb · 04-26-2005, 03:22 PM

I'll amend that a tad:
If you add a front S spoiler you will feel a big difference too, will feel more planted -- at speed, but not around town, etc. the breakpoint might be 50-80 mph depending on how much attention you're paying.

ckissick · 04-26-2005, 03:33 PM

Brit,

I have a '70E coupe also. The PO raced exclusively it and made many mods to the suspension. My car is lower than European height, and I have a set of racing tires that are Toyo Proxes 205/50/15's. My street tires are crappy 195/60/15's. There is a huge difference in the quality of the ride between the tires.

Even with the racing tires, when I go fast around a bumpy corner, I feel like the car is going to bounce right off the road, but it never does. I'm used to it now. Also, I got it up to 120 mph on the freeway the other day, and it felt very secure. I love the way my car rides, but like you, this is the only P-car I've ever driven. In any case, I don't want a newer one.