Just one more thing to add, be sure all electrical connections are absolutly solid, a little issue at a connector can cause all sorts of problems.

W/ some direction from Dr T. I went through mine to see what was causing a 1200rpm idle.

Turned out to be 1 semi-loose wire. It made contact but apparatly not good enough.

Mike, Steve says that they are still working on the chip issue and hope for a resolution shortly.

Unless a 'warm' engine is helping the connections... I think the problem is somewhere else. (Bill, i will be checking the connections, I'm not discounting anything at the moment.) But if the car has been started somewhat recently the crank time is much shorter. I also think that if 5 people are having similar problems. (the good dr timmons himself cranks a couple seconds, but doesnt mind ;) ) then i suspect there is a similarity to the resolution.

Also, its not as if its trying to start, but cant. It cranks for a couple seconds and then VROOOM.

the 3 way connector #20 on this diagram is capped on my car... where did it go?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1123596016.jpg

EDIT I have a new high torque starter and a brand new (stock bosch for an '88) fuel pump and filter.

If you don't have a high torque starter, most likely it is taking the time to get up to the minimum rpm before the DME senses crank rotation and turns on the fuel pump.

Todd

Thanks Bill. Steve's been keeping me in the loop. Even though I bought my engine nearly two years ago, he still supports his customers. I like that. Now, if you want comments about Cyntex' progress on this problem, my words might not be so kind...

Regarding the topic at hand...

It seems a simple dashboard on/off switch for the fuel pump would solve the problem. Any thoughts?

I don't think that the starter is an issue unless there is something wrong w/ it. My high compression 3.8 lights off instantly w/ the originl '76 starter.

Todd gave the residual fuel pressure specs w/ engine stoped 3.8bar

when idling the spec is 3.3 bar

minimum residual is 3bar after 20min

there is a port on the drivers side of the engine on the fuel rail, there is a sealing ball don't lose it, torque for the cap is 12NM

fuel pump spec is 850 cm&#179/30 sec

Dunno, I looked through the shop manual but couldn't find any reference to it. A WAG is that the fuel pressure regulator has a rising rate function usually thiose work by increasing fuel pressure as vacuum decreases as in a WOT run.

Try hooking it up to a source of throttle body vac.

It could also work the opposite by lowering pressure for this try hooking it up to manifold vac.

I questioned Steve about the long start time after setting for a few days.. his words were" check valve". At least they build oil pressure before firing.

Check valve agreed
 

I have the same symptom and I think this related to the proper connections for the vacumn control as Bill noted in the diagram. After I get back from vaca I will check my setup on this and see if there is something "missing"

Chris

FYI: I have a high torque starter as well and still have slow start problems. I have even tried connecting power directly to the fuel pump *first*, than attempting to start the car just like if I had an on/off switch. With CBRacerX, that makes 6 of us now.

Might as well add me to the mix. My 3.6 does the same.

When it was at Patrick Motorsports they said that they felt it was either the fuel pump or a check valve in the fuel system that was letting fuel pressure bleed off.

I crank it for about 5 seconds, stop. If its been started in the last week then it will fire on the second attempt. If not then I do it a second time for 5 seconds, stop and it always fires on the third attempt. I do not like to use the starter for long durations of time as it overheats it. After that it starts right up for a while then if I leave it overnight it starts the same thing again.

Since I have Bill's old 3.6 and he says that it started right up I have to assume that this is a car related problem and not engine.

Had no starting problems with it when the 3.2 was installed so wonder what the problem is ???

JoeA

And then there were 7. The old 'fuel or fire' question would be a good one to get answered. I'm going to do some poking around this weekend and see if I am getting spark. I'd also like to get a feel for the fuel line pressure.

This is an interesting little puzzle, eh? :)

Did you folks machine the reference sensor holder in order to get the correct gap between the flywheel teeth and the sensor (0.8mm if I remember correctly). The unmodified holder won't give you the correct gap and an incorrectly gapped sensor will lead to weak starting, and the aluminum flywheel won't help any.
I would check to see when you are cranking at what point the DME is sending a ground to terminal 85b of the DME relay.
The fact salazar has wired up to run his fuel pump before cranking suggests at least in his case it isn't due to the leakdown of fuel pressure.

Todd

Todd,

My sensor was replaced and set correctly by PMS. That was one of the problems I had with the transplant in the first place that kept it from starting. Do not believe that this is the problem with my engine.

Joe A

My sensor is spot on, I did the install myself. It did not need to be machined, since I am using an RSR flywheel with a G-50

Any other ideas on why the 3.6 is difficult to start in our cars?

JoeA

I am finishing a number of things (waiting for new torsions ,shocks are out being revalved and I am not satisfied with the way I mounted a Carrera cooler in the driver,s side. When I start driving I will be better able to troubleshoot the starting after sitting. I think I will also connect a check engine light (ala Moses and Ingo . Does anyone know how to install a plug to interface with a scan tool?(I have a new snap on one)

I thought I would do a few tuneup things in an effort to improve starting. I took off both dist caps to check the condition of the belt . I was surprised to find a mechanical advance mechanism in the second distributer. The advance weights were seized. I freed them up and have also replaced the 12 plugs(Not as good looking as I like but not obviously bad.). What does the advance do? It would seem it widens/lengthens the spark event.
I also did a compression check and have all around 200 PSI +-10 .
Anybody else find anything wrong with their engines?

Johnsjmc,

Here is the link for the pinouts on the OBD II connector for the scan tool.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150218&highlight=diagno stic+port

You can use any used OBD II plug. I followed the pinouts that moses listed and they worked; I also hooked up the check engine light. I will go through my notes to get the exact wire colors you will need in the DME harness if you like - mine was a 993 motor, BTW. Also, I could'nt find a scan tool, aside from the Bosch Hammer, that will read the DME - I don't know if it is because the Euro 993 motors were actually OBD I and not OBD II. I also have the same starting issue but it is much more apparent after the car has been sitting for more than a few days.

This is a 964 distributor, 993 is the same

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1067801589.jpg

The mechanism pictured is a retard to make sure that as revs rise and whatever the timing dictated by the DME the current goes to the correct plug pickup i.e. "phased". DME timing range is considerable, this is necessary to compensate.

UPDATE :I finally got around to checking out and replacing sensors. The head temp sensor was open(infinite resistance)The DME adjusts cold start injection based on this reading.It should be something like 3300 ohms at 60 deg .It starts much better as it isn,t thinking it is subzero all the time.It also stopped the cold start oil smoke and rich smell as I was probably washing down the cyl walls with fuel. I also replaced the position sensor as well with no noticable change.

are you saying that it fires up right away now?

My cht resistance readings were to spec at cold and I still have the cold start issues. i also suspect that those having problems that change depending on if its a 1 day wait or a longer crank if its a 7 day wait couldnt blame it on the cht.

My suspicion is that its either the regulator valve or a fuel line check valve, but i have yet to pick up a fuel line pressure gauge.

congrats on nailing down a problem sensor... :)

-bernie