"Lifting" your foot off the throttle when you suddenly realize that you seem to be going too fast for the turn and decide you want to slow down. Even worse would be to touch the brakes an instant later.

ahh... I see.

I'm still pretty new to the Porsche... I've only been on one drive I'd call 'lively' in her so far. She needs much work before I can really do that too much.

I've been very aware of this since I experienced my first trailing throttle oversteer (slid across yellow line on a blind corner...but recovered). However, I'm wondering what the proper action is when you realize you're too fast for a corner? Keep the coal on and drive through it? At some point, you will exceed the frictional limit of your tire contact patches and nothing you do will keep you on the road. Guess you just have to be careful!

I've not been to AX or DE but really would like to try it sometime.

I've actually done that in a VW Beetle. :)

Its about weight transfer. If you find yourself going to fast into a corner, and "lift" on the throttle, the car's weght transfers to the front wheels. Drivers can use this weight transfer in load up the front wheels and lessen understeer that may be occuring as the car runs wide of the corner (very useful in AWD/FWD unsteerers like the WRX) This can also be done in rear engined 911s to help tip the car in.

However in the 911, this weight transfer to the front can result in the rear becoming light, rear tyres losing grip, and then the pendulum that is the engine, suspended outboard of the backwheels, takes over and the result can be seen in the pics above.

Stuart

I've not yet had TTO bite me, but there was this one time, when I was driving my roommate's white 1970 911E Coupe (I was trying to practice driving stick, and I figured it was ok since he'd already landed it in a ditch once himself) that I gave the transmission quite a beating. Oh wait, that actually hasn't happened... yet.

See you in October,
Bondolicious

Ok, so I think I pretty much understand it... with the Porsche, you want to push it through the turn... lifting off the throttle shifts the weight due to drag to the front, which can mess things up, since physics comes in and makes the heavier end (the back) want to switch places with the lighter end, and then things go to hell, and the world spins around and bad things happen. Very bad things.

Look at it this way. Going fast requires grip. Grip requires weight over the wheels. The weight of the car shifts under accelaration cornering and braking. The weight over the tyre (holding all else equal) determins how much grip you have and therefore how fast you can go.

Its hard to upset a 911, no matter its power, if its exiting a corner, squat over its rear wheels. In fact its possible to put on power earlier and earlier before the apex if the weight of the car is hunkered over the rears. Its corner entry where people get into trouble- when the weight off the car is tipping forward, the rears lose grip and that heavy engine starts to swing.

This can easy be compounded by doing something dumb like getting a down shift wrong as you enter the corner hard under brakes, and compression locking the rear wheels. Chirp, an instant of locked rears, round you go...easy to do.

if coerced, the 911 will perform this "trick" at surprisingly low speed in torrential downpours, with the roof off which just adds insult to injury if you happen to be seen.

What happened to me was not so bad (i almost ended up in the ditch). I was driving home from one of work's remote sites on probably the third or fourth day I had my car. Roof off, sun shining, 4 lane divided road. It started misting rain then the bottom fell out, time to build an ark style. I wasn't, and still am not, 100 percent confident (moving from a FWD daily driver the day before to a 911) in driving the 911 so I slowed to around 35 mph. I knew there was a turn off ahead with big trees overhanging the road so I decided to pull in and put the roof on. I slow down rather gently, push in the clutch to let my momentum carry me through the turn. I guess the water was a bit deep on the road, or I was braking a little hard (power ABS to manual non ABS you get lazy..) but the next thing I know I am first sideways in the end of the road then sliding backward across the little two lane sideroad towards the ditch. I KNEW I was going in but it just happened it stopped with the rear wheels on the shoulder. But getting to sit there in a torrential rain with the roof off, and praying no one saw you was horrible.

I blame the rain partially, but mostly my infant knowledge of the 911 at that point. I knew that it would come around on paper so to speak, but now I know how it feels in the real world. Seeing the physics drawn out, and living the physics are two different things...

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. It looks like a fairly straightforward fix. But things could have been alot worse, afterall the suv could have went into panic dear in the headlights mode, or could have had a friend following. Atleast you have an excuse to tidy it up a bit :D

BTW, Lifting is when that string which attaches your balls to your brains stretches too much and pulls your foot off the accelerator. Its common around circle tracks. Britt, glad everyone was OK!!

I like Duke's explanation best!

Of course there's also FULL throttle oversteer. This is when some dufus (me) stomps on the gas way before the apex...with cold tires.

Did that too on a Pelican drive but wasn't bad enough and I had enough years driving my beast to know how to catch her.

Was kinda fun :)

I'm glad that neither you ar your passenger were hurt. Once you drive the car enough, it will become second nature for you. I will sometimes have trouble getting the most out of a turn with my wife's Boxster because I am so used to the tail happy 911.

Fixed!
 

Well the mechanical damage is all fixed, the car is teched and my DE is still on!

The oil leak was just overflow from the tank when the car had been up in the air. The muffler was replaced, and I didn't mess up the suspension!

Oh yeah, and we replaced something in the oil tank so I won't see pressure drops going around turn 2 at VIR and more.

I'll worry about paint and body later!

As usual I must state that Chuck Miller, at Millersport in Hillsborough, NC, is fantastic, he put the car in the shop this morning and had me fixed in a day, can't beat that.

Britt

p.s. test driving an elise tonight had nothing to do with this, i just like test driving cars :) but you know, for $7K more, I'll take the extra 100HP of a Cayman S.

The engine damage is easier to repair than any body damage (at least for me). Don't sweat the engine stuff right now...

-Wayne

congrats on being back on the road. Glad it didn't work out worse. I got really lucky in the years that I owned and pushed my '88 hard. I nearly lost it several times, but the rear always just wagged.

If you are really good and overcook it you can use this tendency to make the turn. You can actually lift, let the rear get light, and then back into the gas to hopefully have the back end grab and go. Like turning on a dime. I'm not nearly that good. I played with it from time to time and when you even almost get it it's pretty darn cool. I think I got it right once and it was amazing.

practice practice practice

I assume that the wider the wheel/tire combination ( 9" vs 7")is on the rear the less tendency for this to happen ie more grip??

Also, is the suspension set up on the late 80"s Carreas much different than the earlier 70"s 911"s?

Re: Fixed!
 

Wow, that's incredible.............there is a shop here in Michigan that would keep it till spring, light it on fire and charge you 30% more than anyone else on the planet. Oh and you would have to take it back three times and still things would be not done right and leaking all over the place.

You are lucky to have Chuck.





SmileWavy

There should be a mandatory drivers ed class to drive a 911 just so drivers can lift one time on a track that is flat with nothing to run into. All it takes is one time to learn how to avoid it from happening again.