TTO is throttle steering as I understand it. If you are already on the limit in a corner, you lift to induce TTO to tighten the turn or add more gas to increase understear and widen the turn.

I had an opportunity to AX a friends early 3.2L 911 this spring....in the rain or I woulda had my own car there.
My experience AXing 911s was nil so I figured this is a good time to compare.....non-conventional vechicle attitudes between his car and mine.

Either drop throttle or trail braking (ease off the brake) would step the back end out nicely. *Rolling into the throttle* would produce a controllable tail out slide for about as long had room to do it, after a bit of practice. The onset of oversteer came with plenty of warning....I could feel the back start to pendulum similar to my MR2T ...the effect is more pronounced there.. but much unlike my 914 that just snaps without warning. With the 914, you have to learn to anticipate the snap by the G loading......ah...it's gonna go about ... now. It has snuck up on me many times :eek:

In all, the dreaded drop throttle oversteer of the 911 is not that big a deal.....when you have room to play. A parking lot in the rain is probably *the* place to find out how to deal with it....besides which, it's fun
:D

If I understand this right, you have to make a pretty good guess at your speed going into corner because there is no way to slow it down if enter too fast. Correct?

You are correct. It is I who is in error. Glenn

Because of this thread (50 mph large turn) and another thread (25 mph clipped an Explorer) I was very tense driving my 911 in a drizzle/rain/fog last night.

I drove the speed limit the whole time.:eek:

See what you guys are doing to me? :D

Of course, wider tires in the rear will add grip but along with that comes alignment: what camber or toe?
For mildly agressive street driving I would go with 1 deg neg camber in the back, 0 deg toe.
Front: 1/2 deg neg. camber, slight toe-in. (1/16 to 1/8 inch)
When lowered, I'd recommend a fender-lip setting of 25" front/24.5" rear along with the bumpsteer spacers under the rack.
Corner balancing, of course, assuming that all bushings are tight and you have good shocks.
Practise in a parking lot with lots of space both, wet and dry.
On the 930's, Porsche put 7's in front and 9's in the rear to make sure that the rear has more grip.
With practise, you'll recognize the right speed for whatever corner.
On backcountry roads, I try to "straighten" the curves by using the whole road, always watching/expecting opposite traffic.
On the straights, I stay in the middle of the road to be prepaired for wild-life. That means going over the double-line at times and I have to stress that I always respect/expect oncoming traffic and slip back on my side.
SC's normally have 6's front/7's rear: I have 7's in front, 8's in the rear with stock tires: 16" - 205's front/225's rear. Mild cambers F/R and a small toe-in front.
On our last spirited run around St. Helens, WA, I tried very hard in heavy rain to bring the rear end around; couldn't do it. The whole car slides sideways which to me means: good weight distribution and grip.
As for differences between early 70's and later 911's: I can only think about adjustable spring plates after '77 which made it easier to adjust height and corner-balance.
The swaybars and torsion bars got bigger as the weight increased.
Learn your limits and the limits of your car. Drive within the limits. Good tires and brakes and a tight suspension are a must.
Don't get caught in the pack-mentality when driving with others. Practise! SmileWavy

I gotta speak up here.. How you get off the brakes and into the gas is just one part of cornering. I think that 911's need to be driven differently then other cars and by that I mean the line one takes through the turn. If our cars don't like mid conrer decel, then LATE APEX! Late apex lines make it easy to make mid corner adjustments and leave you some room at the track out in case the turn is tighter then it looked. For canyon carving on roads that may have obstacles and other cars this is the way to keep out of ditches and the morgue.

On another note. The two feet in thing is great once you are spun to the point of no return, but in order for that to work you need to lock the wheels all the way. Once all four wheels are locked the car will just go straight at whatever trajectory you are on. This sounds bad but it's better then running up the inside banking and rolling the car, which is what happens if you gas it once you are too far around. On the track, a car with all the tires locked is easier to get around because it is going in a straight line. There will be smoke, lots of smoke....

Alex

Whenever I see any water anywhere, all bets are off. Scares the ***** out of me. Amazing how the handling goes from 8.5 to 2 just with the presence of some water. I've never lost the back end in the 964 though...but if i did, with its greater weight and power, I think it would just end in complete disaster.

I'll try for a bit of clarification.
The trouble starts when one enters a corner with *what you think* is too much speed. If the front end doesn't start to push (understeer) you're OK. Understeer is recognized by steering wheel shaking in your hands and you begin to run wide (tires squealing which adds to the mayhem) Now, you may have a problem. Your new line may not be too wide to make the corner and the plow will tend to scrub off speed *if you don't lift off the go pedal*....going against the natural tendency. Assuming this is going to work for you, at some point, the front end is gonna bite and you may have a wiggle to correct.... or the corner will end and, as you unwind the wheel, it will be as if you planed to do it:D

As an aside, I can honestly say that I have never entered a corner too fast on a dry public road in 40 years of driving. I have induced understeer to a small degree in several cars, but that isn't "too fast". Frankly, on dry pavement you have to be going like hella to reach this point and are being foolish. I have gotten surprised & out of shape in the wet, but have always saved it....mostly due to lower speed.

The problems start when you have too much push. If you have waaay too much speed, you're going off... frontwards, backwards, or sideways are your choices. It's those saveable ones that are being discussed here and for that practice is required.

IMO, diving into the other lane is a good way to die.
If you have enough control to do it, you don't have a problem....yet... and you still have a bit of time to brake in a straight line.

BTW, both feet in does not mean lock em' up. Locking the brakes will kill the motor if you don't get it right and I see this happen frequently...this is not good. You have a dead car in the middle (maybe) of a road or track and your attention is diverted to attempt a restart. Also there are some situations where you can control your spin
and/or drive out of it IF you have all controls working.
Threshold braking is what's required here.....it won't take much pressure (but is vairable) as your tires have lost traction already, but will stop you quickest if it comes to that. This takes practice also. So, both feet in, head up & looking, select a lower gear, light a smoke.....ah, it's over, off we go then.:D

I disagree.

We are told at every DE: In a spin, both feet in. They say that if you're 45 degrees out of whack, you're not recovering. Both pedals to the floor will keep the engine from stalling (clutch in) and the locked up brakes will keep the car in a straight line (so those behind you can avoid you). When you come to rest, you can drive away.

Threshold braking only works if you still have traction.

I spun a 1965 356C ( a 720 ) when I was 17 and I learned to go in soft and come out hard - same thing on a good road or dirt bike also

easy in, fast out
 

Proved that to myself in my last few DE's.

Just signed off, I went right to work on developing s bad habit.
Got a good instructor to take a ride and got it straightened out.

I was applying to much throttle too soon after turn in while trying to get to the apex. Car pushed and I couldn't get there, consistently pushed wide and "unwound late".

Light balanced throttle until the car gets rotated and then firm, progressive throttle past the apex holds the line and generates much better exit speed.

well said

The ideas expressed in my post are my opinions. What "they" told you at a DE have no effect on my conclusions formed from my experience.

As an autocrosser, I've spent a lot of time sideways & backwards.....it comes with the territory and there is no place better to learn car control with minimal risk
"They" tell their students one thing and I tell mine another. I make no attempt to teach spin recovery....these aren't airplanes.
When you're comfortable spinning, then you can screw around with this stuff. Wanna hear about taking your hands off the steering wheel to catch a tank slapper? A vid maybe?

Dang, Britt! I just found this thread. Glad you are ok and the damage minimal. Keep me in the loop as you srart the restoration.

TTO-Trailing Throttle Oversteer...letting off the gas to induce oversteer. Hopefully you meant to do it.

It's just one part of throttle steering.

An update...
 

Thanks for all the good support folks. Just so you know the car is in fine mechanical shape, it's just a little more worse for wear on the exterior.

The DE went pretty well. We ran the south course at VIR 2 days and the full course one day. I was really cautious, scared, not right in my head, etc on saturday. I had a pair of offs, the second one really shook me up, not because of any risk but the car just pushed BAD through 1 & 2 and I had the wheel cranked and nothing, i mean, nothing happened, i just drifted right into the grass, i wasn't even going fast, i had taken the car through that turn faster that morning.

Talk about killing your confidence, my instructor and i were both kinda dumb founded. This was in my 3rd of 4 sessions Saturday. I was so shaken I was thinking of packing it in and going home... but I stuck it out. I tried adjusting the tire pressure up about 2 pounds to 28/30, and my instructor suggested we avoid the off camber outer edge of turn 2 and just not tempt grass!

So we went back out and I was determined to have a good session, and I did! I think my instructor helped a lot here by showing full confidence in me and the car. If he had seemed unsure about going out with me again, I would have probably lost my nerve too. So we ended the day on a good note.

Sunday I took a suggestion from Mark Stubbs who was running pressures of 24/26 in his 68L, and tried that (he had been running 28/30 saturday and said the lower pressures made a huge difference) and the improvement was really noticable, the car cornered much crisper. Also I fixed my straightaway speed at 80 so I could be consistent while still allowing people to pass me (i was out there with many faster cars, including a 993 twin turbo, and a porsche tractor)
The whole day went well, no offs, much more confidence, i had a great time.

Monday was on the full course, i've done the full course before, and it was freaking awesome. I love the full course at VIR, the climbing esses, oak tree and then roller coaster and hog pen are just way too much fun. The full course is so much fun it should be illegal. I was cresting the hill on the back at 120 and hitting 110 on the front, it was a blast.

I took my video camera, and made a little movie (4 sizes available) from a couple video sources on sunday.

Enjoy!

Britt

p.s. Hal: you got any useful sheetmetal?

Those pressures sound too low unless you are running R compounds.

Years ago on my first track day with a 911 (i'd had the car four days) I encountered a real problem with turn in. Massive push, then snap oversteer as you came off the power (TTO again) to try to get the nose to turn. The prick of thing just would not go round corners. The car exhibited none of these tendencies in normal road use.

A wise 911 head present worded me up on 911 geometry, epsecially in the rear. Assuming your tyres shocks and suspension are good, suggest you might benefit from a proper wheel alignment from a specialist P shop. Money well spent.

BTW, just FYI- handbook cold pressures for a 964 R/44psi F/36psi. Have experimented with other settings and decided Porsche know what they are doing. I use less in R compounds, usually R33/F29.

Britt,
I have my first DE at the end of Oct, and well after reading you post I have a pit in my stomach. I have never been scared of my Porsche , and I have try to get her loose lot of times. I have done just about every extreme sport out there, some in uniform. But I was always well trained and prepared for the event.
That being said, I have a few questions.
1. did you instructor give you some points before you had your OFF's?
2. did he know what went wrong each time , and make you understand it as well?
3.What kind of T bars do you have , and have you done any upgrades?

I have been waiting for this event for some time, And I think I am prepared.BUT I want to make sure.

I changed my "T" bars to 22s(front) and 29s(rears)
new bushings in the rear
Carrera brakes up front, with cool kit.
Strut brace
New tires
New pads

I hope I have not missed anything.

Derek:

Well the first off was a case of SLOW DOWN. I was over confident and out drove the car around the corner, understeer ensued and I drove it off the track in a nice controlled straight line.

Second off we really didn't know what was happening, the car just kept pushing... I wasn't going fast, I had hit the apex (i think) well enough, but nothing, and then we go to the off camber side of the track and we just drove off. I really don't know what caused it.

As for pointers before hand, yes he was trying to give me some, but he didn't have an intercom, so I was having trouble hearing him, especially the first session out.

I have no suspension upgrades, other than S front suspension instead of the self leveling struts that the car came with, but that was done prior to 1988.

You'll be fine, trust me. My first 2 DEs I didn't have any trouble like this, I think the was a lot of mental issues that first day out, what with having just bent the car up and all...

Stuart:

I agree the pressures sound low, but they were definitly working for me, before I lowered them the car felt skitish, with them lowere things felt better. I'm running BF Goodrich H rated performance tires, best ones you can find for 205/60/14. The factory pressures for my car are 28/30 I believe. Definitly not as high as the 964 numbers you quoted. Also the days were cool and overcast so I wasn't heating the tires up that much... I was using the 10% rule for tire pressures. As soon as I came off I checked and they were up about 10-15 percent from cold. Earlier in the summer I ran hot pressures of close to 40, but that was on the VIR full course which is much longer, fast, and on july 5, about 100 ambient with full sun.

The alignment was checked by a Porsche specialist 2 days after the wreck and 4 days before DE, he pronounced it excellent. The car is also corner balanced.

I found during the day that I could actually power out of the turns and that would correct any push i felt through the apex. Basically my route around the big turns (aka long single apex 180s) was brake, dive in on medium throttle, get past the apex and blast out, when I started to head towards the off camber side of 1&2 i just started putting the hammer down and the car would hold. I think on my first day I didn't have the nerve to put the hammer down as much...

Britt