How not to corner

[bell]

a few years ago when i had my accident something similar happened......was going into a tight corner way too fast, the rear end started to come around on me.....if i would have lifted i would've smacked into the guardrail backward very fast.....but remembering i was in the 911 i floored it, countersteered, and mad it around the corner in a deep drift until i could clutch it and come safely to a stop. well it worked.....unfortunately a moron who was flying behind ran strait into me after i came to a safe stop. took 3 months to get my car back from the repairs.
live and learn

[Driver Ed]

First, I'll second the (implicit) recommendation of Chuck Miller in Hillsborough. He's extremely competent and a hell of nice guy as well.

As for the excellent question, "what if you know you're coming in too hot into a cuve?" I think the answer proably depends on how much too hot, and what's around. I think I'd try to do very hard last minute straight line braking. Failing that, if I were already into the turn, I think I'd try stay on the gas and try to ride it out if it was at all conceivable that I could maintain control. Once you lose control, the rule on the track is "both feet in" (i.e. clutch and brake). Braking slows the car and disengaging the clutch saves the engine.

I'm not sure beyond that. Seems to me to be very condition specifc. Generally, I'd attempt to adhere to the wisdom of the Hippocratic Oath: "First, do no harm." If that fails, "do as little harm as possible" would seem to be a reasonable secondary principle.

[Argeo]

This is scary considering you weren't even fooling around. I spun around at an autocross on Sunday which was kind of fun to experience. On a street it has got to be terrifying.

Glad your alright and good luck with the car.

David

[J P Stein]

A couple years ago, I took my car for a spin up WA. Highway 14 towards Cape Horn (for those that know the area). The car was still streetable, but barely. With a clear road, I was fooling around but realized 2 things.

The limits of the car were so high that the ticket would have broken the bank.
If I screwed the pooch, they would have to pick me up with a shovel....if they found me.

OK, so I'm gettin' old.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by bell
a few years ago when i had my accident something similar happened......was going into a tight corner way too fast, the rear end started to come around on me.....if i would have lifted i would've smacked into the guardrail backward very fast.....but remembering i was in the 911 i floored it, countersteered, and mad it around the corner in a deep drift until i could clutch it and come safely to a stop. well it worked.....unfortunately a moron who was flying behind ran strait into me after i came to a safe stop. took 3 months to get my car back from the repairs.
live and learn

Ah, -Just for anyone else reading this who may act on this advice when it happnes to them- "Flooring it" isnt the answer to this situation and could easily result in a bigger incident further down the road as the car becomes more unstable. And it sort of did in this case. Obviously a "safe stop" after a lose isnt one where another car can run into you.

The answer -IMHO- first you stop/moderate whats caused the problem. In this case, moderate as neccessary the throttle (gentle throttle on) to control the weight transfer and grip coming off the rear wheels. Above all be smooth with hands and feet, dont do anything violent to upset the car, look down the road to where you want go and point the car there. The car will follow you eyes and hands.

The best place to learn these skills is on a track where there are no trees and ditches.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by 78sc
However, I'm wondering what the proper action is when you realize you're too fast for a corner? Keep the coal on and drive through it? .

The mantra is:

"Brake straight - turn in - power out". You cannot repeat this often enough.

I was taught this by my instructer in a Porsche many years ago, and I still find myself repeating it when driving very fast. It really sums up all you need to know about driving quickly through corners in a 911.

Get the speed scrubbed off before you turn in - and then just floor it.

But to answer your question: nine times out of ten when you "realize" you are too fast in a corner you are not - and you must stay on the gas. Anything else is folly. The one time in ten when you really are too fast - pray and stay on the gas.

[gatotom]

Dottore.....you summed it quite nicely, well said.

If you think 911's are squirrelie, you should try driving a 63-65 356. A 64 356C was my first p-car many yrs ago and all I can remember is that I spent alot of time backing out of ditches, it broke so fast

My next one was a 66 912 and it was pretty stable, after learning the skills to drive a 356 the 912 was easy. The next one was a 914 and that was a kick in the pants, you could make perfect donuts down the hywy spinning right on the center line. My current 911 is very stable but with yrs in these cars, it should be. I can't imagine what a wide body with 300 hp would be like, it might really scare me at its potential.

I spun out my 911 once to date and it was raining hard at about 10:30pm coming into a 30mph turn at about 90. I hit the binders hard hit pure black ice, took my foot off the brake and gas, did a complete 360, front end went thru the ditch, popped back onto the road pointing the correct direction, speed now slowed down to about 50 and everything seemed ok. I took one big breath cuz on the left side of the road was one big dropoff, too far to think I would have walked from this one and I thank the car that I was driving. Well, 10 miles down the road oil light comes on, bad bad sign. I pull over and get out to assess the damage, my frontend bra is tore up, fog lights both gone, no license plate, front left headlight lense broke and one tiny hole in the oil line in my front right oil cooler, bummer and its still raining from hell. I was 200 miles from home.

Spent the night in the car, wet but had a 6 pack, thank the big guy for that. Slapped some duck tape around the hole and crimped it with bailing wire and drove home the next day, 30 quarts of oil later, I made it home. On my way home I found my broken fog light and license plate still on the hywy.

Moral of story, by taking my foot off brake and gas and holding steering wheel straight, I walked away without totaling car and myself, I just let the car do the correcting. I have great respect for this car and now realize it is my safest car that I drive cuz it is way smarter than I, the engineers that made this car are truly geniuses.

[Vipergrün]

I had a scary incident in the rain once. No problems or crashes, but it freaked me out. The next day I found a vacant lot with some water, bumps, and dirt. I spent over 4 hours there just getting to know my car in a safe environment. I found the limits before a spin, steered out of near spins, throttle steered, and other slides and stuff. It was a very educating time. I'd recommend some time and instruction on a skid pad or something similar. These cars have amazing abilities with brakes, balance, and power, but these same things can bite hard and fast. Hope your car recovers!

[brittbolen]

Picked the car up today, the door/quarter looks a little sad, but it runs as good as always.

Talked about restoring my car with a guy, he's busy for now, but he's interested in doing it this winter. So for now I can start finding sheetmetal, and then I can do all the prep work there.

So I need a hood, right fender, left door and left rear bumper... wow that sounds like a lot of metal! It will be great when it's done. For now it's my track beater

B

[HarryD]

Originally posted by 78sc
I've been very aware of this since I experienced my first trailing throttle oversteer (slid across yellow line on a blind corner...but recovered). However, I'm wondering what the proper action is when you realize you're too fast for a corner? Keep the coal on and drive through it? At some point, you will exceed the frictional limit of your tire contact patches and nothing you do will keep you on the road. Guess you just have to be careful!

I've not been to AX or DE but really would like to try it sometime.

78SC,

GO TO AN AX not a DE. You can safely explore limits and feel/correct for the consequences.

At AX, the risk of damge is very low and the learning is very high. This type of error at a DE can be very costly to both your body and your car but at AX, only your ego will be bruised.

[Fishcop]

From my experience over the years (accident investigator years ago) and just enjoying my car at the track these days... A car (particularly a Porsche) is actually more capable than you'd think, and generally the problem is panic from the driver. I know it's easy to say "don't panic" but *generally*; if you don't panic, keep driving through the corner - eyes where you want to be, a well maintained car will surprise you.

To sum it - your car is probably a lot better a performer than you are a driver... Now I know there are some great steerers on this board, but I'm talking road cars in traffic condidtions.

[72doug2,2S]

Just curious because I've not done this. What does keeping the gas steady and gradually applying the handbrake? (Obviously not locking the backs)

[ttweed]

Originally posted by 72doug2,2S
Just curious because I've not done this. What does keeping the gas steady and gradually applying the handbrake? (Obviously not locking the backs)

That is not a good thing to do for several reasons-first being you have to take a hand off the wheel to do it, and modulating the handbrake force is very difficult-it is too easy to lock the rears, which will put you in a spin. The best thing to do if you need to scrub off some speed and tighten your line is to gently left-foot brake while keeping your foot in the throttle. This has to be done perfectly, though, and has the same effect as throttle-steering, only a bit more stable. Forget about it if you haven't already practiced it at the track, though, it will not save your bacon if you are doing it for the first time in an emergency situation. You need a deft touch on the brake pedal and impeccable timing to achieve the desired result, which would be rotating the car slightly to make the apex without upsetting it and throwing it in the ditch or whatever.

TT

[72doug2,2S]

Tom, good point on the one hand steering, although a (handbrake) rear lock-up seems unlikely under acceleration, doesn't it?

I like the steady gas and light brake idea, besides there's no way in heck you'll think of the handbrake in that situation unless your doing the whole exercise on purpose.

[Gunter]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned LSD or suspension issues.
You can take two 911's from the same year and get different results when cornering:
One without LSD and worn suspension-parts like shocks, bushings, tires, alignment etc.
The other, same year, same type but with LSD, tight suspension, good tires, corner-balanced etc.
There are so many variables when you turn ass-over-end but I truly appreciate my LSD. (The one in the differential)

Brake going straight - light gas into the turn - more gas coming out. Enjoy

[glenndeweirdt]

I have found that practicing TTO on a makeshift skidpad (empty parking lot with arbitrary 200 ft. radius) just to explore limits in a controlled environment. Even though the TTO beast has been greatly tamed, it is still very much evident in my '83 and even detectible in the '99. I am surprised no one has made reference to the advantages of TTO in autocross and on the track when used as an alternative to throttle steering to modify line of attack.

[glenndeweirdt]

Sorry TTWEED you did offer an excellent discussion. Iwas busy keyboarding in rightous indignation as you were replying! Glenn

[jose luis]

So the bottom line will be :

When you are too fast near a corner in a 911 :


1) Slow down before enter it.
2) When you are IN DO NOT use the brakes or lift your foot from the accelerator pedal.
3) Keep your hand in the steering wheel controlling the oversteer from the back .( Like the Yellowbird @ RUF Video) .
4) Enjoy the view from the driver's seat!.




JL Garcia
912, 1968

[Venetian]

Gunter,

Thats what I was wanting some feedback on from my earlier post.


"I assume that the wider the wheel/tire combination ( 9" vs 7")is on the rear the less tendency for this to happen ie more grip??

Also, is the suspension set up on the late 80"s Carreras much different than the earlier 70"s 911"s?"

[silverc4s]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jose luis
[B]So the bottom line will be :

When you are too fast near a corner in a 911 :


1) Slow down before enter it.
2) When you are IN DO NOT use the brakes or lift your foot from the accelerator pedal.
3) Keep your hand in the steering wheel controlling the oversteer from the back .( Like the Yellowbird @ RUF Video) .
4) Enjoy the view from the driver's seat!.

I agree completely, of course. To be TOTALLY clear: The best result with a 911 (and most cars actually) is when you can accellerate smoothly all the way through the corner, continuing to accellerate until it is time to brake for the NEXT corner. In slow - Out fast..