Longhood is better then Carrera!!?? Read on...

[avendlerdp]

O.K. first off, thanks for the helpful replies to my recent posts. This forum is a great resource.

Since November I have been the proud owner of both an '84 Carrera as well as a 1970 T. Here's the thing. I love them both and have been stumped as to which one to drive every day for the past few months but I wonder what is up with the Carrera's handling. Both cars are stock and have the same size front tires but the steering effort on the 3.2 car is way more heavy. The newer car also pushes in most turns. In order to bring the rear around the car needs to be either thrown hard into the turn or a big helping of lift throttle at apex will rotate it. The older car has way better handling and feels 1000 lbs lighter. Is it just a weight thing or are the alignment specs for the newer car such that it's "safer"? The T feels so much better that it's lack of power is not that noticeable and I would venture to say that on most canyon roads it would leave the Carrera in the dust.

What am I missing here? Is the extra few hundred pounds on the newer car that big a deal?

Ideas?

-Alex

[EdT82SC]

I don't think you're missing anything. Why do you think there are so many threads about lightening cars?

[stormmaster]

A lot of it is a weight thing....I also used to own a 70T...and now own an 87 Carrera....The newer cars weigh a whole lot more than the older ones...engines, transmission, suspension pieces all weigh more not to mention things like bumpers , power windows, power seats, functional AC...better heaters..and such....the factory also designed in more understeer into the newer cars to compensate for the added power and the fact that a lot of the buyers were not able to control the cars if set up for performance driving....you forget the target market started changing in the late 70s....at least in my opinion....both are great cars....one is just more user friendly (ergonomically enjoyable) ... I wish I had my 70 back....It was just too nice of an example for me to turn into an RSR clone....someday.......for the moment I am thrilled with my Carrera

[450knotOffice]

I think you hit the nail on the head with both assessments. First of all, your anti-sway bars and alignment settings play a huge part in whether your car over or understeers. Second, your steering is much lighter in feel because your 70 T is significantly lighter than your Carrera and therefore the front end is carrying less weight. Less weight on the wheels equals easier steering forces.

If you lighten up the Carrera a little and have a good Porsche shop give you a more performance oriented alignment your car will handle much more like the old T than it does now.

[randywebb]

ditto!

but also:
- are the tires exactly the same size F & R on both cars?
- same for wheels - at least width
- did you check the tire pressures on both with the same gauge on the same day & time (or normalize for temperature)?

[cmcfaul]

I drive my fathers 89 911 Carrera factory wide body often and my 73 911 E almost daily (we trade cars for weeks at a time). There is no doubt the 73 would smoke the Carrera on the track.

Both are AWESOME looking. I love the look of the Carerra (red) with the whale tail, flairs, etc and the classic look of the 73. My father used to be an avid racer / instructor and claims to hold the track record at Bridgehampton. I have been goading him into attending a DE with me in both cars but he won't take me up on it because he knows his car would not be competitive with mine.

The Carerra is a very competitent car with a nice engine. It's just heavy and does not have the same feel as the 73. The Carrera is a lot more forgiving and has much better brakes.

Chris
73 911 E

[stlrj]

Alex,

Are both cars the same height? From what you describe, I would venture to guess that the Carrera was lowered and the T was stock.

Joe

[450knotOffice]

Chris, do you know what your '73 weighs? I've got my Carrera down to 2570 but I don't think I can get it much lighter without doing some really drastic things to it. I'm guessing your E is probably at least 200 pounds lighter.

[wcc]

I've never driven a long hood P-car. With that out of the way you'd have to compare apples to apples. The easiest way would be both cars completely stock. The '70 car is lighter, but not as much power. The brakes aren't as good either. I don't know, and I don't have any actual facts or data to back up my claim, but I would be surprised if a 1970 car would get better track times than a 1984 3.2 narrow body.

[avendlerdp]

The T seems a bit lower then the Carrera but not too much. THe T has 205's on deep 6's all around and the 84 has 205's on 6's the front and 215's on 7's on the rear.

Other then weight savings, what could a guy do to get the Carrera more nimble. Does anyone know what the difference is with the alignment specs?

-Alex

[cmcfaul]

I do not know the exact weight of the 73. I just learned in another post that I can weigh the 73 at a local recycling center. As soon as the snow melts around here I am going to take it down there to have it weighed

Chris
73 911 E

[IROC]

Originally posted by cmcfaul
I drive my fathers 89 911 Carrera factory wide body often and my 73 911 E almost daily (we trade cars for weeks at a time). There is no doubt the 73 would smoke the Carrera on the track.

This is an interesting statement as I think the Carrera could probably hold it's own (if not be quicker) depending on the track (assuming both cars are stock). The '73 is giving up quite a bit of hp and alot of torque.

My car is kind of the best of both worlds. It's got a 245hp 3.2, SC flares, Carrera brakes and big tires and wheels in a 2400lb, non-sunroof '76 body shell.

I agree that removing weight from these cars is a great thing.

Mike

[Sunroof]

I owned a 1979SC before buying a 1973.5T. Although all were built in the 1970's, the "T" was the lighest and the most nimble of all. The 3.0 got me thru traffic the fastest, but the "T" seems to do better in the turns. The differences in weight and feel between the SC's and the older longhoods are like apples and bananas. Although I miss the quick speed and the creature comforts the SC has over the "T", the "T" can be whipped around the bends easier, is more forgiving and you wear them better! Torque, noise and sure footed...thats the early 911's. Now the appeal for these cars is getting stronger.

Bob
73.5T

[FrayAdjacent911]

IIRC, a 1970T weighs around 2200 stock.

[IROC]

Originally posted by FrayAdjacent911
IIRC, a 1970T weighs around 2200 stock.

FWIW, the PCA Club Racing rules list it at 2249.

Mike

[bigrubberjeep]

I used to own a 67 912, very light and agile around the canyons. It rotated around turns easy and even had decent acceleration, however not so good under any kind of incline hill (912 4-banger)
Under hard brakes it would want to get squirly and it did not invoke much confidence, not to mention it would take a good distance.

My current widebody plows like a tractor on ice, however it is stock weight and has yet to have it's suspension tuned for AX or DE events. What I do admire about the Carrera widebody though is it's power out of the turns, and the fact I can drive 100MPH and come to almost a complete stop withing 25 yards and with total control, no squirly feeling at all.

so which would I prefer? the older car with the news cars suspension and drivetrain

But reality is, I'll just lighten my current car and adjust suspension accordingly.

[masraum]

Originally posted by avendlerdp
The T seems a bit lower then the Carrera but not too much. THe T has 205's on deep 6's all around and the 84 has 205's on 6's the front and 215's on 7's on the rear.

Other then weight savings, what could a guy do to get the Carrera more nimble. Does anyone know what the difference is with the alignment specs?

-Alex

OK, well, you have part of the answer right there. The T has the same size tires all around while the Carrera has more rubber in the rear specifically to keep it from being too tail happy.

Does the Carrera have 16x6 and 16x7? Are you sure it's got 215's and not 225s or is it 15x6 and 15x7?

By the time the Carrera came around they tried to make the cars less tail happy, put smaller tires on the back of the carrera and then get the alignment setup and you should be able to make the steering effort more or less, the tendency to understeer more or less, etc....

I think you are just comparing apples and oranges right now. The carrera could probably be made to feel more like the T.

[masraum]

Originally posted by bigrubberjeep
I can drive 100MPH and come to almost a complete stop withing 25 yards

I think I get your point, but I'd pay to see that. 100mph-0 in 75feet. Not even with slicks I'm guessing.

[jluetjen]

I've driven both a Carrera 3.2 and my '69E. If the Carrera feels that bad -- there's something wrong. I'd confirm that the tires have enough air and that the alignment is set correctly first off. As far as I know you can align both cars to the same specs. Sure the Carrera 3.2 is somewhat more "portly" then the long hood, but in the global scheme of things it's still a 911 and should handle like one.

If that's been done and you still have a problem, then it is something more subtle and difficult to diagnose.

[cmcfaul]

Nothing wrong with a Carrera. Great car, very comfortable, superb brakes just heaver and not as raw as a long hood. Which car would I take on a long trip....the Carrera. Which car is better suited for the track ...the 73 E

Chris
73 911 E