Where is Porsche when we need help?

[75Carrera]

Where is “Porsche” when it comes to providing factual information about the expensive little cars we pour our hearts and our money into? I have to wonder if this has ever been asked before and what (if any) response have we ever gotten directly from the manufacturer?
I am very grateful for the wealth of information available at places like Pelican and the generous way information is provided (amongst ourselves)…

Porsche has certainly experienced many part failures over its history. The list would be fairly extensive. With things like the 2.7 magnesium engine blocks and 84-89 fan housings just for starters. I’m sure you can all contribute many, many pieces and parts that had basic design, construction and/or material failures.

My question is: What has Porsche ever done to offer replacement parts to correct these issues? I don’t suggest the factory should do this for free but they seem to leave it up to the aftermarket suppliers to generate replacement parts at generally very high prices. It gives the appearance Porsche doesn’t really care. As far as I can tell the factory very seldom even offers the production information we need to resolve these issues with accurate historical facts. Fortunately there are many of you who have accumulated assorted facts over the years through your experience and are willing to share your findings with the rest of us. But where is Porsche? Why doesn’t the proud manufacturer of these fine sports cars take an active role in reproducing improved replacement parts to offset their failures in the past? I’m not suggesting they give the replacements away. But it seems reasonable they would face up to the established issues and (at a minimum) offer specific information to recognize and/or correct the failures, we all know, some of their products have consistently experienced.
Is it even possible to talk to Porsche? As far as I know it isn’t.
I will probably never sell my car but “loyalty” should be a two-way street. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

[Paulporsche]

What they have done is gradually improve the car overall over the years, so that many parts that are new to later models are able to be substituted on earlier, such as brakes and wheels. And in some instances, earlier items can replace later ones that weren't quite as good, like spring v rubber centered clutches and early v later exhausts.

[porschenut]

Porsche has always provided a high level of support for their RECENT models. What are you expecting from them regarding your 30 year old car? No car manufacturer can or will continue to support cars that old. Usually the support drops off very quickly after the end of the new car warranty period.

All the common issues you referred to were addressed by Porsche back when the cars were still recent models and the issues were discovered. The information is readily available from numerous sources, as are the parts needed to correct the issues. There's no reason for Porsche to keep these issues a priority one decade after another. Porsche didn't make one dime of revenue when you bought your car used. They are in the business of selling and servicing NEW cars, as they always have. You say loyalty should be a two-way street - have you ever bought a new Porsche? If no, then you are not a Porsche customer. Buying parts from the parts department doesn't count IMO.

On the other hand, there have been many threads talking about the wealth of technical information (including workshop manuals and TSB's) that Porsche could easily and cheaply make available to owners of older cars, perhaps via pdf download. But all we can reasonably expect is for them to make the info available, not spend any time or resources addressing old issues that were already addressed and documented decades earlier.

[75Carrera]

Dave,

I do understand the age limitations and appreciate your comments about the factory focus on the selling "new cars." I've only purchased one new car from Porsche over the years (a 930 in 1985). I've owed a few used models and hung onto this 75 car through all those years. I was always been too busy to do any wrench work myself and considered the high costs of upkeep to be indiginous to the breed. Now that I'm not working like I did back in those wealth building years I'm learning and enjoying doing more and more myself. That's how I discovered Pelican about 18 months ago and what a terrific resource it is..
I've always "paid" my way. I have to disagree that "Porsche doesn't make a dime." Porsche doesn't make anything on resales (that's true) but when it comes to replacement or service parts, Porsche has made a truckload of my dimes. I am certainly a Porsche customer rather buying new cars or parts. I was wondering if it's possible to go directly to Porsche with questions about the cars for clarity when we're confronted with issues they should be the absolute authority on? As far as I can see you can't. I'm not *****ing, I'm simply asking...

[randywebb]

I guess we will have to see what the 'Heritage' group in P Ag does. There is a rumor that a new run of Fuchs will be made soon.

I think we are in danger of winding up like the 356 people - no NOS parts, and the need to cannibalize and/or "remanf." parts we want - even little pieces of plastic.

But what sorts of "questions about the cars " did you have in mind? I think they are pretty well documented.

The oddest pieces of info that are not out there is the location of the center of gravity, the roll center, and the torsional stiffness...

[75Carrera]

Randy,
I see it that way too. I suppose there is a reasonable offset to the "increasingly rare" factor. Prices (values) of our earlier cars is on the rise. I sure agree, the natural evolution will ceratinly take the early 911's down the same path as the 356. Personally I don't think about resale value for my "Preciuos." I've spent so much money on her she's clearly an addiction and not an investment.
Now that I've stepped off into the world of upgrades my appreciation of "original cars" continues to grow. I started down this path when the Sillium-s**t block on my original 2.7 failed for the second time. I've got a great car (fresh 3.2) and I want to learn as much about her as I can now that I have a little more time to do that.
Questions seem to keep appearing as I dive deeper into working on the car myself and feeding my addiction. (But I'm learning!)
What's "The Heritage' group in P Ag"??

[randywebb]

What's "The Heritage' group in P AG"??

- not really sure, but I was something about it recently -- can't recall if it was on a bbs or in a magazine; sounds like they may try to help out their most loyal customers... us (or maybe we are just their most insane customers)

I'd advise people to read Paul Frere's 911 book first, and also the Aichele books and Bruce Anderson's book. After that, you can move on to the Upfixin' series from PCA, and just do a search here for topics of interest. There are not many things that have not been discussed on this bbs already - tho that doesn't mean that definitive answers all always there.

[vanwyk4257]

They're too busy counting their over $1M profit every day!

[porschenut]

If you bought the 930 new then you're right, and in my book you are definitely a Porsche customer. As far as contacting them, the closest I think you'll get is PCNA Customer Care, but the reps there aren't able to provide information on problems or solutions for car issues. They can tell you other interesting things though, like the build date, original colors and options as originally delivered. Even if you could talk to Porsche AG, I'm sure they would refer you to a local dealer for assistance.

I'm not really disagreeing with you - I would be tickled pink if the company would be more amenable to the needs of us "classic" owners.

I don't know anything about the heritage group - is that something new? I had heard that you could have your older car restored at the factory for a princely sum - is that the heritage group?

[KNS]

Regarding new parts sales, Porsche does make plenty off the sale of parts over the counter. As long as there is a demand for older 911 parts, they will continue to manufacture them - well most of them anyway. When the demand drops to the level of 356 parts sales, production of air-cooled 911 parts will drop as well.
Why would Porsche manufacture a 'wacha-ma-callit' when they only sold three the year before.
Keep those 911s on the road!!

[boxster03]

Heritage has yet to answer how many cars were mfg. by ea. color between the model yrs 1969 - 1973. seems simple enough

[Wayne 962]

Porsche *does* support the older models quite well, when you compare them to other manufacturers. But, the truth of the matter is that they are primarily in the business of selling new cars, not parts for the older ones. Asking Porsche to support the older cars is like asking Microsoft to continue to support Windows 3.1. I'm sure there's a core group of people who still use Windows 3.1 for some reason, but for the most part, they are on their own for support. Like us and the early Porsches...

-Wayne

[Grady Clay]

I have posted on this subject many times.

Perhaps one little glimmer of hope is that PET is available for free download from PCNA.

I agree that PAG is missing the boat. They are either going to be left behind or relegated to the “me too” category with servicing the needs of the non-current cars they have manufactured.


Exactly what are those needs?

From my perspective it is first technical information. All of this is available; you must have to dig unnecessarily deep to find it. The copyrighted quantity in the black market tells the story. PAG can both protect their copyright and be a hero to their customers by publishing this on-line for free or inexpensive CDs (as PET parts catalog for retail US$11.04). Even paper if it is priced appropriately. It is a win-win-win situation that I have posted on many times.

I am not an attorney but it appears the “lawyer” approach to protecting the copyright is far inferior and way too costly compared to the market approach. Sell the stuff at a bargain price or give it on-line. That puts the black marketers out of business, the legal costs are minimized and the copyright is maintained. I’ll speculate PCNA could provide every Porsche owner in the US with all the technical information for 15% of their legal bill for the same thing. That is money in the bank for Porsche AG.

Next, PAG should license the aftermarket for OEM and replacement parts. All they do is collect royalty income with no capital investment and very little administration cost. I think this could also help cement their copyright of the design.

PAG should make runs of replacement chassis. This could be done totally by a vendor. You have to turn in your original bare chassis in order to get a new one (with same VIN.) I don’t think PAG would want to get into building new “old” cars but they certainly can supply replacement parts (like a complete chassis) and not run afoul of various governments.

What would a 911.500.923.18 spare part ’73 Carrera RS “Spare body, compl. without seats, oil cooler, with oil tank” be worth? How about just a (galvanized) “chassis in white” - SWB, ’73, ’77, ’86, and ’89? Do them in pre-paid batches on a 5-yrear rotation.


Finally, I think what is underlying this discussion is the apparent disassociation of the Factory from their customers. Someone needs to remember what side of the bread the butter goes on. Communication is the issue. There should be a terrific technical, service, and after-sales intercourse between Porsche owners and the “Factory.” That is clearly missing.

If you talk to a USA Dealer, too many won’t even discuss anything earlier than a 996 unless it is a trade, Of course they are very proud to have a ’55, ’65, ‘73S and more on their showroom, even if they have to rent them.

As I have said before PAG is currently spending the capital (not financial) earned by Professor and Doctor Porsche and staff over many years far faster than they are earning any. That tradition, respect, enthusiasm, loyalty and more is hard earned and if lost, is nearly impossible to regain. No amount of PR …. The marketplace has a very long memory.


The basic presentation to PAG is about money. No business can stay in business without making money. It is the obligation of the Supervisory Board to direct and guide the management to make money for the owners (stock holders) – that is their fiduciary responsibility. The issue that is missing is it isn’t just the next quarter – there is a far longer term view (both directions) necessary.

It will take a cooperative effort among the Factory, customers, Dealers (current & former) and service organizations to accomplish this.


Here is an extreme scenario: What if there were few new vehicles being manufactured worldwide? PAG might stay in existence by servicing their 100-year old cars. They are not currently prepared to do that and possibly have already lost the ability. Of course we would hope it would evolve with the times yet not abandon their roots.


The real argument as why PAG should follow this path is US and MONEY. WE are the best Porsche sales persons a manufacturer could possibly have. Everyone here has spent countless hours with relatives, neighbors, friends and even total strangers explaining the lure of Porsche. Every person who walks into a Porsche showroom came from our (or like) recommendation. I doubt that any come in (much less buy) solely from advertising or anything else.


It is inconceivable that Dr. –Ing. h.c. F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft would piss all this away.


The sad part is it looks like they are trying.


Best,
Grady
gradyclay@hotmail.com

[75Carrera]

Yikes Grady! You HAVE given this a lot of thought. You made a bunch of excellent suggestions. Think of the heightened interest their would be in the earlier cars if Porsche added a few of your ideas to their helmeted thinking. Your point about fewer units going out in the future is dead on target I'd think (no pun). This would sure provide an interesting way to bolster both their cash flow and continue supporting the breed. How many out here want to take on an "obsolete" ride?
OEM and quality aftermarket reproduction part sources like our beloved Pelican Parts are the perfect vehicles for Porsche to use for effortless distribution. Hey Dr. Porsche! Ever heard the phrase "Dumb if you don't?"

[porschenut]

Originally posted by 75Carrera
Hey Dr. Porsche! Ever heard the phrase "Dumb if you don't?"

Unfortunately, the good Dr. can't hear you....he's dead, along with his vision. The quote in my signature says it all.

[Duke]

("The oddest pieces of info that are not out there is the location of the center of gravity, the roll center, and the torsional stiffness") How to locate the center of gravity can be found in "Up-Fixen der Porsche", volume 3, pg 59.

[75Carrera]

"he's dead, along with his vision" You're right. Ferry Porsche probably isn't listening to this PP either.

I appreciate the feed back on this subject. It demonstrates how dedicated we are to our 911s. Too bad Ferry isn't more in touch with the people who put him thru college!

[steve lewis]

Hate to say this but Ferry Porsche is also dead (march 27 1998)

[porschenut]

No, no, no.....Ferry Porsche IS the Dr.

Professor Ferdinand Porsche - the father - died in 1952.
Dr. Ferry Porsche - the son - died in 1998, the same year the 911 died.

[exponence]

I give you a german view:

Yes, you can ask the factory.
The technical department or porsche classic..via e-mail or phone.
It takes time, but you get an answer.
But they look in the archives, there is only a small amount of people, who really knows the old cars (maybe at porsche classic).
After 20 or 30 years?? normal...most of the important guys are dead or no longer working for the company.
There are a lot more customers with all the new cars.

They hold an big amount of original parts in stock, but maybe they can not produce it again.
I think there is no way to produce an old chassis, if its not on stock.
The old machines are no longer available and a lot were handcrafted.
All rare parts..getting expensive..
To keep all that stuff in stock over 50 years is really expensive.

A new 3.2 engine from stock is maybe available but around 48K, a new 996 engine is 10K.
That shows the difference. Original Targa top up to 13K..etc..
But how much people bought a 3.2 engine over the last years??

If important parts ran out of stock, they search for other producers.
Example 930 fenders...long time expensive around 1500, then unavailable. Now only 800. Not everything gets more worse.

Only mercedes has such an amount of stuff for old cars available.
10 years is a normal time for all other companies to stop producing spare parts for old cars.

My opinion is:
the knowledge of some small independent porsche technicians and a big community (like pelican) is (after 30 years working only on the old cars) maybe much higher than the one some old porsche engineers.

Thats normal and i appreciate that.

And Porsche still do changes on parts.
One or two years ago, there was a recall action (free of charge) for 993 cabs.
They changed the electrical convertible top motors for free(around 1000 bucks), after 10 years. Pretty okay.
There is a new version out for this motor...and it fits also into 3.2 or 964.
This was an security issue- a fan is different

I think its impossible to want more and i totally agree that porsche now is a normal big car manufacturer...since 1998

Jo