question: starter problem, or alternator/batery?

[rnln]

Originally posted by RoninLB
I would start by trying a direct solenoid jump from the large hot cable. If the starter spins try cleaning the 14 pin engine comp connector. I use a razor blade to spread the male pins so it's a tight fit. The 14 pin connector is silver plated and delicate to abrasives. I use a toothbrush and some thinner then dielectric grease.

Hi RoninLB,
Can you tell me where the "14 pin engine comp connector" located?
Thanks

[rnln]

Wil,
It happen again, and again yesterday.
Thanks for bringing those thread up again.
Regarding gchappel problem (exact same as my problem now), has he find out the real problem, is the main cable to the batery+ or the yellow singal wire to the ignition key?
Did he (or you) figure out the safest path for either of them?
What wire size should I replace it with?
Thanks Wil

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln
Hi RoninLB,
Can you tell me where the "14 pin engine comp connector" located?

Hi

the 14 pin is attached to the rear of the left engine compartment electric panel. It's black, around 2.5 inchs long and 1 inch wide. The removed connector may open and allow internal wiring to pop out of its holder.

I'd suggest disconnecting battery. Remove connector without man handling it. Use a screwdriver to split it apart if necessary. Then notice the connector can be opened from the top. Wrap it closed tight if it tends to open on its own. The point being that the internal wiring could pop out of its designated position.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln

It happen again, and again yesterday.

, is the main cable to the batery+ or the yellow singal wire to the ignition key?

From my 1st reply
"I would start by trying a direct solenoid jump from the large hot cable. "


This will isolate the problem being either the ability of the ignition switch to trigger the starter solenoid or the ability of the battery to power the starter.

Many times language doesn't get understood. Don't be shy about asking a poster to explain what he wrote.

[rnln]

Thanks Ronin,

What size of wire I should use to replace the yellow wire? Should I use bigger wire, or diff type of wire?

Thanks.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln

What size of wire I should use to replace the yellow wire?

Should I use bigger wire, or diff type of wire?

Hi

Ok.. then you're sure it's the yellow wire from the ignition switch is causing the problem ?

I want to eventually change mine with AWG 8ga yellow Anchor wire from the marine store. All wire strands are tinned and the insulation is heavy and strong. It may seem a bit overkill for some but, in my opinion, the starter solenoid may draw much more than its rated amperage of around 6amps. Plus it's a long run. It's worth the extra $5 for the install. The better quality wire connectors are there also.

10ga would be installed at the shop as the logical choice.

If you're going to start snaking wires consider also installing an engine compartment solenoid jump mounted permanently somewhere. I have that installed and it's a great thing to have around. That would be 10ga wire with a marine store Cole Hersee large "momentary on" 10amp switch that costs around $20. It's waterproof, has silver contacts, and a rubber button cover.

"then you're sure it's the yellow wire from the ignition switch is causing the problem ?"

If it's in that circuit maybe it's the ignition switch?

[rnln]

Ronin,
I am not so sure but after reading many thread and opinion. Mine problem seem to be very.. exactly.. to most description. Beside, many people have problem with this wire. It's only benefit to replace it. I am not sure if I can be able to do the power cable but definitely I want to do the yellow one.
So 8ga for yellow and maybe another 8ga or 10ga for the additional start switch huh.
Thanks.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln
but definitely I want to do the yellow one.
So 8ga for yellow and maybe another 8ga or 10ga for the additional start switch huh.

yes and 10ga is plenty good for the engine compartment switch.

I was suggesting earlier the use of a manual solenoid jump from the starter large battery feed cable lug to the solenoid connector that the yellow wire attaches to.

If you can hook the jumper up when the starter won't operate normally from the ignition switch it will give you a direction for your problem. If the jumper triggers the starter then the stock connection from the ignition switch to the solenoid is the area to fix. The ignition switch itself or the yellow wire connection is the problem.

The yellow wire has a Y splitter in my car for the air conditioner compressor that can be dirty. The Y exists whether you have AC or not. It's located under the dash, on the floor of the trunk. The other yellow wire failure prone area is at the 14 pin connection in the engine compartment.

The ignition switch contacts can be tested by running a spare 10ga wire from battery to the yellow wire disconnected from the ignition switch. You attach one end of the spare wire to the stock yellow wire. When you touch the other end of the spare wire to the battery hot pole you'll be delivering voltage to the solenoid bypassing the ignition switch. So now if this triggers the starter then your switch is kaput.

If you are going to buy a manual starter solenoid jump switch get a good one. This operation can be dangerous. Tranny in netural brake on and be careful.


this one is expensive.

[rnln]

Ronin,
If I cut off the yellow wire at the ignition key to connect it to the batery+, then the AC and the 14 pins won't get (+) power.

I was thinking of replacing the yellow wire by cutting off at the ignition and at the starter. Then run a replacement 10ga wire from ignition key to the starter. But base on your explanation, I won't have AC and the 14pins connector power anymore. What happend if you have the yellow uncut while "touching" it to the the battery+?

What is the best way of replacing the yellow wire?
There also be a possiblity of replacing the power cable from batery+ to the sater too right? Base on gchappel problem and tested, mine is so much the same.

If you have not read this long post, yes long, but interesting:
starter problem- still- any help or ideas?

another thought. The yellow wire only get power when the ignition key exceeded the "on" position. When the car start, the key back to "on" position"; at this position, the yellow wire won't have any power. For what purpose would the AC connect to this wire?

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rnln

If I cut off the yellow wire at the ignition key to connect it to the batery+, then the AC and the 14 pins won't get (+) power.
------------- correct.
You don't cut anything. Remove the plug at the bulkhead above the pedals and stick the test wire in the female part. The idea is to by-pass the ignition sw. If it operates the starter then the problem is the ignition sw. If it doesn't then the problem is in the yellow wiring from the sw to the sol. Maybe the male pin from the ign sw is dirty or loose at the bulkhead connector. Try spreading the male yellow pin a little bit. This assumes that the starter always works if you're jumping the starter solenoid manually.

run a replacement 10ga wire from ignition key to the starter. I won't have AC and the 14pins connector power anymore.
------------ You'll have AC power from another source. The Y connects to a relay that neturalizes the use of the AC relay when starting. The AC compressor will still be engaged if you left the dash AC sw on. Your starter will be under a heavier load when turning the engine if you don't turn the dash AC sw off. OR just install a Y in the new wire for the AC yellow wire. You'll be by-passing the 14 pin connector yellow connection.

What happend if you have the yellow uncut while "touching" it to the the battery+?
----------- "uncut" means it's still connected to sw. Just pop the plug at the bulkhead and you fully disconnect the sw.

What is the best way of replacing the yellow wire?
---------- another pelicanhead replied to this and he sounds pretty good.

There also be a possiblity of replacing the power cable from batery+ to the sater too right? Base on gchappel problem and tested, mine is so much the same.
---------- Everything is a possibility with electrics. The battery cable is a long shot. Try finding out what the exact problem is first. I'd like to replace mine if I'm ever in that area.

The yellow wire only get power when the ignition key exceeded the "on" position.
-------- No.
It gets power when the key is turned to "start". The "on" position is where the key falls after starting.

key back to "on" position"; at this position, the yellow wire won't have any power.
-------- correct

For what purpose would the AC connect to this wire?
------------ to unload the AC compressor when starting.. see above.

[rnln]

thanks Ronin

[Wil Ferch]

Pictures in this post show the kind of under-insulation corrosion that caused me fits to find my occasional no-start problem, that I talk about here, within this thread--->

Burnt carpet, fried wires, what happened? (Pics)

- Wil

[rnln]

Thanks Will,
I kindda solved some and unsoved some related problem. At first I/we thought of many things. It turn out that it was the alternator/batery related. I rebuilt the al, batery is bad. Replace batery, drove for a while, dead again. Maybe it was the al which put out too high voltage (sometimes up to 14.9 or 15 v) or maybe simply because I don't drive the car that much. With a brand new batery, it can last for proximately 10 days or a little longer. If the batery is drained and recharged , it will last less (maybe dead in a week. Right now, I have another brand new batery and just have to check it after several days. If it's below 12v, I have to start the car and let it run for coupld mins.
I had a diff old car before and it does the same thing while I never have this problem with new cars. On my other newer cars, I can leave it untouch for months without a problem. Why?

[rick-l]

Originally posted by Wil Ferch
Fuel pump ( on an 87) will NOT run with power "on" and the motor not turning...there is a bunch of continuous BS being stated both here and in other posts like this....

If both of you guys who said this indeed "hear something"....it's not the fuel pump !

- Wil

Wil The schematic below is what FR Wilk tells me is in the DME. The fuel pump runs when pin 20 of the DME is pulled to ground energizing the DME relay.

The blue arrow is the direction current will flow when 12 volts from the yellow wire is appled to pin 4 (turns on NPN darlington).

The red arrow is the direction current will flow when the DME detects the engine is running and command the pump on (also turns on transistor).

Note that either of these conditions will run the fuel pump.

[the]

Is there a way to test the yellow wire?

In other words, hook something up to the wire and measure under various conditions (at rest, ignition on, ignition switch turned to start, etc)?

What should the normal readings be at the end of the yellow wire under those conditions?

When I jump the lug that the yellow wire attached to on the starter, jump it to the post where the 12V hot wire from the battery attaches to the starter, I get sparks, but no starter turning. ???

[the]

Originally posted by RoninLB
If I cut off the yellow wire at the ignition key to connect it to the batery+, then the AC and the 14 pins won't get (+) power.
------------- correct.
You don't cut anything. Remove the plug at the bulkhead above the pedals and stick the test wire in the female part. The idea is to by-pass the ignition sw. If it operates the starter then the problem is the ignition sw. If it doesn't then the problem is in the yellow wiring from the sw to the sol. Maybe the male pin from the ign sw is dirty or loose at the bulkhead connector. Try spreading the male yellow pin a little bit. This assumes that the starter always works if you're jumping the starter solenoid manually.

So, when you turn the ignition sw to the "on" position (all the way turned against the spring), the yellow wire should receive 12V?

So to test the yellow wire, I can attach a test wire directly to the positive side of the battery, and touch it to the lug that the yellow wire attaches on the starter, correct?

That should spin the starter?

[rick-l]

Originally posted by the
When I jump the lug that the yellow wire attached to on the starter, jump it to the post where the 12V hot wire from the battery attaches to the starter, I get sparks, but no starter turning. ???

Seems like that pretty much narrows it down to the starter.

Do youe hear anything out of the starter when you do this? Like the solenoid pulling in?

[the]

No, nothing but a pretty good spark show when I try to make the connection.