You didn't get a PPI? So what "surprises" did you find after the fact?
 

Stupid me didn't get a PPI before I bought my SC. I found Pelican before buying the car and read a lot of threads about what to look for yet I didn't heed the most popular advice to PPI.

What did it cost me? The PO said the clutch pedal was stiff because the car has a new rubber centered clutch. After 10K miles of my ownership, I discovered the cause to be a worn out, semi-seized up pilot bearing. Many hours of labor plus parts.

I've also got a rat's nest of aftermarket wiring behind and under the dash. Who knows where all that stuff goes.

Yup, should've PPI'd. Oh well, now the car runs great! Just have to sort out the spaghetti.

Any lessons learned out there?

Did exactly the same. Read up and prepared. Set on a PPI. Then one day there she was. Just lovely. Bought her right there. No PPI.

Fortunately no surprises.

So far...

Boy I'll say!!

The car pulls to redline like nobody's business!


Oh, you mean BAD things :D


Well, I too did not get a PPI on this car. I had PPIs done on some others and passed. Money well spent I think.

The car I bought was listed here on Pelican with a lot of feedback, a review posted by another Pelican and a dyno run. last thing I wanted was a red targa, but as soon as I rounded the corner and saw it, I knew right then and there I was buying it.

About the only things not up to the listing ad:
It said Bilsteins, well they were only on the back. Fixed now.
No mention of a failing starter, but it's there. About once a month it shrieks in protest.
Ad said targa top was just recovered. No way. It sure needs it now though!



-Chris

I did not have a PPI. The car was my fathers :) I already knew what I was getting.

Dave

Re: You didn't get a PPI? So what "surprises" did you find after the fact?
 

Several lessons.

Best lesson I learned is that small size, distance pics are a car's best friend on eBay, and your worst enemy. if you are buying a car long distance, get detailed pics of areas you want to see, or of course have a fellow Pelican check it out. Bought a 71T on eBay out of Texas... cars don't rust in Texas I thought having lived there once. Car looked great in 20 shots in the ad. Asked owner lots of questions on email and over the phone on rust since he had put in a new front pan. He said not to worry about the rear longitudinals, floors, rockers, etc., they were all fine..."won't need to touch them for years on the East Coast." So trusting him, and seeing all the great pics, I won the auction for $3200 or so. $750 to get it up here. It arrives while I'm on business out in the Bay Area. I get back and that leads me to my second lesson.

When it arrives, don't just mildly check it out, REALLY check it out. Well, the car ran and drove fine and it looked pretty decent, but both front fenders were junk, all rusted bubbled up under blue paint that you couldn't see in the pics. he also pulled the pockets out of the car before shipping it. Being busy I parked it for a few weeks. getting back to it, tearing it apart for a track project, I found terminal rust pretty quickly. No, I wouldn't need to worry about the longitudinals, because they didn't actually exist! :mad:

bad floors, bad front pan repair job, bad rockers, etc. Ended up parting it out for well over the $4k I bought it for, but it certainly didn't cover my labor or frustration, and it really set me back in building a project.

The owner...no emails or calls returned. :mad:

Yow, expensive lessons learned Shaun!

I didn't get a PPI. After 20+ years of messin' with cars, I felt I could spot a solid candidate. Everything checked out well to my eye...

I was right. Two years later and the cars as solid as I thought. I'll admit no PPI was a move I usually do not perform. There's nothing like a second opinion. No matter how good you think you are.

Some cars are such good deals that they will be gone before you get a PPI. It's really hard to buy a 73 & older 911 these days in nice shape for a reasonable price unless you buy it instantly.

That said I would NOT even buy a killer deal 911 without a PPI if I didn't know much about 911s. Having bought and sold quite a few of these cars, I know what to look for in terms of body rot and telltale signs of a heap. I don't get PPIs anymore, but I never buy a car except in person, and then only after I do what I call a "DIY PPI". :)

Jay's DIY PPI for a 73 & older 911:

1. Check that VIN numbers match on hood latch panel, by smugglers box, windshield post, doorjamb sticker (if it's there), and most importantly the title!

2. Look for rust by torsion tubes, front torsion bar mounts, battery trays, rocker panels, floorpans, fender bottoms...basically all the nooks and crannies in the car too. This takes experience to find all the places to look.

3. Make sure the car has enough power, and is smooth running shifting, has tight suspension and steering. Experience is necessary here too.

4. Look for ripples and bondo in the body and other evidence of accident damage. Again with the experience.

5. Do a compression check on the spot. Not as telling as a leakdown, but if you get good even compression on all cylinders you can be pretty sure that the leakdown is OK.

Like I said though...unless you have the experience, a PPI is the ideal way to go.

You should see my notes when I bought my car.
1) "Just look for oil leaks."

No PPI either. Didn't know a thing about Porsches, didn't know what a PPI was, still really haven't seen one or know what to look for and to top it off I didn't really know how to drive a stickshift. You are probably going to laugh but I read this and was able to bring the car home. The next couple of weeks was a learning experience. Every night I went over to the local hills in first gear and practiced getting through the gears without stalling or rolling back.

The surprises I found.

1) Interior pieces broken
2) Transmission bushings bad
3) Oil leak from tank to thermostat that slowly started to get worse.
4) Replacement wiring stereo wiring under dash is a mess.
5) That this is the best investment I have ever made and so much fun in the caliber of people I have met (fellow Pelicans) and financially I still have not lost money on my car.

That's it, other than that the car has treated me with just as much love as I give her.

No PPI - Bought mine from a REAL nice guy/dealer in Texas, that I trusted, before I found this board. A huge mistake. 4k later I'm close to sorting it out. Just another 4-5k for the valve guide issue and I'll be set. What a way to learn a lesson. In fact - what better of a way to learn about your car than replace/rebuild everything!! At least I have a good attitude about it - one day I'll be Victorious!!!

Yup, no PPI and I had issues.

Bent tub being the big one. $3K estimate repair.

The good news is that I think the engine has been rebuilt (~210K miles) because it pulls too strong and sound too good for something with those kind of miles.

Also have a couple of reciepts for a rebuilt tranny, diff, new oil seals all around, starter and Alt. all at 200K miles! Bills come to about $6000. It also has the oil fed tensioners, doesn't smoke, new bil's at each corner and factory Fuch's (16's).

I paid $9900 for a '78 SC (11/05), so with all said and (not) done (yet!) I don't think I'm too bad off.

I would definately get a PPI the next time, but it's kinda nice to know that I'm saving something that someone else might have thrown away. It also feels good to know that everytime I work on it...it gets better!

Brad

Interesting. I was thinking about buying a car from the SOMEWHERE in the Lone Star State a little while back before i joined the forum and read up on thangs, but something made me nervous. No idea what made me hesitant, but I guess that I was Victorious.......lol If you read Excellence this month, you will notice a certain ad......hmmmmm

That was the best hunch you ever had!!!!

I did not get a PPI done on my 1987 Carrera because I purchased it from a friend who had a PPI done before he purchased the car a year or so earlier. My friend had a brand new clutch installed, new oil lines, A/C repairs, sway bar mount repair, and engine insulation mat replaced (He decided he wanted a 993). The car also came with a butt load of service and repair records from new.

I would not have sought to purchase this particular car, either, but it was a known quantity and the pricing was very generous. I used it as a daily driver for 3 years without spending a dime over normal services (All completed by yours truly thanks to Wayne and this board).

The only time I really held my breath on the purchase was when I brought my car to TRE to have it aligned and balanced after I upgraded and refreshed the suspension. I knew it had been in some accidents even though it has a totally clean CARFAX and all the vin stickers are in place. I was ecstatic when TRE said my car is as straight as an arrow and was easily put into spec for the alignment/corner balance--whew!

In my case, I figure I have been one lucky/happy pup.

Mike

I think the key is knowing the model and what potentially could be wrong. Like with SCs, it's pretty much manditory these days to pull the valve covers and check for broken head studs.

No PPI, either. Heck, I didn't even drive it until we met at the bank to make the deal. I had no clue what I was getting into. I just knew I wanted this 911. With the exception of me beating the crap out of second gear powershifting the first two years, the car has been reliable with no problems that I didn't create myself. I was, however, disappointed in the power of the car. My previous hot rod was a 13 second 6speed Z28. I have since learned the valuable lesson that speed is not just the quarter mile or smoky burnouts. Holy Crap, I think I grew up since buying it!

Posted a thread on this before but, the short answer is one of the PO's had installed an ordinary toilet flapper valve in the CIS airbox to function as a popoff valve. I don't know why he thought that would work, but it obviously did not and he ended up epoxying it shut. When the car backfired on me it blew the airbox which is when I found that little classic condition!

I bought my 1972 911T off ebay with no PPI. I bought the usual books about longhoods so I knew what models to avoid and such but I realize now how naive I was. I've learned so much more since I've been following this forum. I could have been screwed royally but in hindsight I made out OK. The things I missed were:

Rusty front suspension pan. Honestly it look good! I should have brought an ice pick with me. (repair awaiting completion of my garage)

New stainless exchangers, which I though were a plus, were incorrect for the model and didn't have the port for the MFI thermostat. The PO had the mixture set extra lean to compensate for the constant enrichment. I had the port welded in, connected the hose to the thermostat, and dialed the mixture in by trial and error to where it is very drivable. Again I am waiting garage completion before I can formally go through the formal MFI adjustments.

Heater flapper boxes were completely rusted. Welded in new ones.

Dash gauges were not grounded! Easy fix but it took me about a week to suss out all of the bizzare symptoms.

Leaking oil filter console. Took me a while to figure it out but it was a relatively easy fix. Talk about smoke!

Broken nut on a major oil line. Bought a replacement line (ouch!).

Despite all of this, the car is solid, most critical areas have little or no rust, and it runs like hell. Glad I bought the car and the price was about right in hindsight.

But I coulda be screwed bigtime.

Steve B.

:)

1979 911SC bought in 1989 with no PPI. ~100,000 miles

Needed 4 shocks. I had guessed 2.
Had a bent front A-arm. Replaced when upgraded suspension.
Needed new oil cooler. ouch. found used in Pano for $150 and learned to drop the engine myself.
Needed a new engine a year or so later. Bad leakdown on one cylinder. Replaced bad SC motor with a used Carrera motor.
Rear torsion bars were rusted to the spring plates. To this day I still have a spring plate with a rusted torsion bar stub somewhere in my mix.
All in all probably cost me at least $7500.

At least I got a great deal on the car at $14000. (insert sarcasm here) Good thing I bought this one instead of the beautiful, perfect, low miles, one owner 1983 with all the books and records for a whopping $18000. Penny wise, pound foolish.

The upside is that I learned a lot about my car and every time something broke, I installed something better if I was able. It should be done in another decade or so.......In the meantime I'll just drive it and enjoy it.

Hmmm lets see so far I've found, About 20 lbs worth of bondo, patching the inner fender walls around the bumper shock mounts, a tumbler that notoriously locks up, rust through the body behind the a/c dryer bottle, rust around the jack reciever tube, a window regulator with a missing wheel, a malfunctioning temperature gauge, and best of all evidence of rear end body damage. I'm sure if I wanted to think longer of my mistakes I could come up with a lot more. Ahhh the joys of being young and dumb.

And I have had the same experience as Shaun with:

The owner...no emails or calls returned. :mad:

Seriously folks, no matter how much you trust a seller and how great they seem online go out of your way to get a PPI. The feeling of missing a great 911 becuase you had to get a PPI is better than skipping the PPI and having the gut wrenching feeling of being ripped off when you find the problems listed above.

Cheers
Rich

Also had a hunch about an '82 Euro Turbo that another "dealer" from my own home state was selling. It didn't meet reserve or BIN twice. I subsequently heard on here that this "dealer" may have rolled back the odometer on a car that one of the Pelicans just missed buying on Ebay. By the way.......BOTH of these dealers had 99-100% positive feedback. Ironic consiudering that I have 2 negative feedbacks that were given in retaliation for complaining about being ripped off...lol. Somebody must be looking out for me on this deal........unless, of course there is more wrong with the car I bought than the bubbly dashboard.....LMAO.....No PPI......impulse buy that I couldn't pass up......Carfax/State of New York comfirmed 28,000 miles!!!!!!!

No PPI here either... having some reasonable mech background (mostly Ford, a little bit of VW exp.) and reading posts on various sites (this one included of course) and being a little bull-headed, I felt comfortable carrying through with it myself. It wasn't too fun to fly from one coast to the other with a whole whack of tools, coveralls, etc to end up disappointed and flying back. But, the car actually ended up being better than the seller thought it was.

Things wrong that I should have used to drop the price further:

1. Seller saying "I've never used the heater, but it probably works. Who wants heat anyway when driving 140 on the turnpike?". Ended up heater control was crap (repaired) and leak in exchangers providing some great fumes. At least the A/C works perfectly!

2. Whoever is going around the country doing cheap a$$ stereo wiring methods on these cars, please stop. The seller commented when I was trying to figure out why the radio wasn't working: "Who needs the radio when you can listen to that great engine sound?". On this point, I actually agree with the seller (but the wiring had to go).

3. "It leaks maybe one or two drips a week, but all these cars leak". I only thought about it later how the cardboard under the car looked freshly laid down. Try two drips a day, puddle each week. The PO obviously never heard of the wonderful silicone gaskets sold at Pelican.

I did get leakdown / compression test results from a reputable P-car specialist prior to arriving to the seller's location along with a check of the turbo fuel mixture/enrichment system (beyond my knowledge), and all results were very good. Also, full service paperwork going back to '82 - it was well pampered through life.

It's been an awesome experience so far, but I'm sure that rainy day will come along (hopefully after summer!).

Lastly, 84porsche, that has to be one of the funniest things I've read on here... you definitely are a risk taker! I'd have a breakdown if you were my stock broker. Is there a how-to guide on heal&toe as well? ;)

rob
'79 930

Mine was an EBay buy also. Several conversations with the seller and a carfax looked good, so I went with a hunch. The results of the Post-PI were, in the words of the mechanic, "You got a really nice car".

What the car has needed in the last 18 months: Washer motor, wheel alignment, turbo tie rod upgrade, chasing down electrical gremlins from a botched alarm install, new speakers. One valve guide might be going bad, but it was not apparent when I purchased the car.

No PPI and only surprise was an old Hofco III alarm that was causing intermittent starting problems that gradually evolved into a complete no-start scenario. I replace the engine (pulled head studs) and many other fuel/ignition parts trying to "fix" the starting problem, than I got smart and took it to an excellent Porsche mechanic (Tab Tanner in Findlay, OH) and he found the root cause (old alarm) and removed it and got the car sorted out.

I'm wondering which and what of the issues described would be discovered by a PPI - even by pretty darn good PPIer - during the course of a 'standard' $ 200.00 PPI?

Bent Tub - I'm thinking not, unless a full shop alignment and corner balancing was performed (or unless it was really badly warped)

Rusted Torsion Bars - Not likely, without a pretty significant suspension disassembly

I think better questions would be:
What did a PPI discover on your potential purchase?
What effect did those discoveries have on your purchase? Or Price paid?
What did a PPI not discover on purchase that you later found?
Would it really have made a difference to your purchase decision?

And maybe even: would you be willing to pay $ 1,000 or significantly more for a complete in-shop PPI that would include a top end engine break down, and at least a partial suspension disassembly? For a 20-25-30 year old car that costs $ 10K - $ 20K?

THoughts? Thanks,
Jim

No PPI, no problems. Just tune up, upgrades, and ... faith.

No PPI needed on barn finds. Everything is built into the purchase price.

hi all
as some know on here i just had a ppi done
results were poor but now i,m told by owner that i,m being fooled (to put it nicely) and person who did ppi now wants to buy car now
what do you guys think of that.
anyone had this happen to them?

perhaps i should get a board member there to have a look to be sure
anyone in the jersey shore area?

No PPI, broken head studs. But to look on the bright side, now I have a new top end with 964 cams, new clutch, and what the %$#, might as well rebuild the trans while we are at it! If I have to sell anytime soon (hopefully not), the buyer will get one heck of a deal (and won't need a PPI!!). The A/C even works (prior owner had updated)!

Sometimes the price is too good to pass up.

My '78SC Targa was abandoned for half a year in the parking garage at work. Facilities was trying to evict it, sent registered letters to owner who had left the company, etc. I kept an eye on it weekly, wondering - my first Porsche? Being a huge BritCar fan, I'd park my TR6 next to the Pcar since I knew the door wasn't going to get opened on my car!

But I digress - the car was towed, I hastily contacted the owner, we meet at the towing yard and settle on $5,250.00.

He thought the #1 cylinder was dead - just needed an Italian tune up (Techron + a very long run freed up the 'rings in the piston lands). Otherwise it's all been up from here. Have put a lot into the car but then again I LOVE working on cars!

John

No PPI
 

Barn Find. No PPI. Knew what I was getting into. A "long term" relationship.

http://www.curtperedina.com/images/lester1.jpg

http://www.curtperedina.com/images/lester2.jpg

[QUOTE]
I think better questions would be:
What did a PPI discover on your potential purchase?
What effect did those discoveries have on your purchase? Or Price paid?
What did a PPI not discover on purchase that you later found?
Would it really have made a difference to your purchase decision?

/[QUOTE]

I agree with this line of questioning.

I had three PPI's done before my ultimate purchase.

The first one uncovered several mechanical problems w/ shift linkage, throttle linkage, suspension defect. The asking price was on the high side and the seller would not budge on his price so I walked.

The second PPI uncovered a supposed minor valve cover leak to be a case seam leak. On a 2.7 this was a deal breaker so I walked.

The third PPI is a different story. It was done by a high profile classic sports car dealer. (first mistake ....not a PCar only repair shop)

It was not their car, but rather a service customers car that was recently in for repair to reseal the valve cover and timing chain cover. Also it needed gas tank replacement due to rust in tank.

To highlight the PPI, " the engine was dry as a bone. The transmission shifted real good for a 901 and that most of my money spent would be on redoing the suspension." the sale price refected the suspension update so I got the car.

When I got the car home, I noticed three things after the first weekend. There was spotting in my garage, I have difficulty shifting into first gear, and the car bogs down under load. I put the car on a lift and discovered that the timing case and valve covers were leaking. Hmmm new gaskets in May and its only July. No biggy, I tightened them down a bit and everythings now dry.

The surprise underneath was that the axle shafts were spitting out grease from the cups. Definitely something that should have been caught by someone paying attention.

Lower the car and check the fuel filters on the bogging issue. Each filter weighs twice as much as a new one and you can't even blow air through them. It would seem to me that if a mechanic just replaced a fuel tank he would either blow out the fuel lines or at the very least recommend that filters be replaced.

But wait, there's more!

I bring the car down to the race shop thats going to do the suspension update. We get in the car to testdrive and the mechanic looks at me and says "Wow, I've never heard valves this loud before. " Then he moves the shifter back and forth and says " This whole thing needs to be rebushed. What did you get yourself into." I shook my head and said to myself "How could've this PPI tech been so far off? Was he on drugs?"

I guess the moral of the story is "Make sure you inspect the inspector"

I ppi'd before I bought.

I was shocked to find out the A/C didn't work!!! :eek:





;)

No PPI - I've kept a diary of the things I've done & it has grown to several pages now. A few things have been normal maintenance but the more I learn about what *could* have been wrong, the luckier I think I was. Everything has been mostly remove and replace either covered by 101 projects or here on this forum (Thanks to all!)

The guy who bought my 996 took the 996 to the famous independent Porche shop in Hollywood for a PPI before giving me the money. I was there with him. The shop jacked up the car. Took a few look under the car. That was done. It only took 20 minutes. He was charged $70. The PPI was pretty much like that they do at the Shell gas station. I was happy as a seller. I know he was not going to find anything serious with the PPI. I personally asked the shop owner, " is this what you call PPI? He said "we are just too busy."

"Rust free" NEVER means rust free. ;)

I don't understand how a shop is too busy to make their hourly wage?


There's no reason for a $1000 PPI. 2 hours of shop time should cover it. That's about $250 in my area.

Bought before I knew of Pelican, impulse buy, found out it was an ROW gray market (passed CA smog though before I bought it, and that it had an aftermarket A/C which didn't work. . :o windshild wipers didn't park and antenna didn't work. Also a few other odds and ends, like no fuses in the engine fuse block, fortunately everything connected to those fuses worked upon putting in new fuses.

Ahh, the Prepurchase Inspection discussion (PPI). There are many facets of this discussion that I can weigh in on:

- Firstly, the rule of thumb is to always get a PPI. For older cars, get one at a place other than the dealer - they just don't know anything about the older cars anymore. For the newer cars, the best place is still the dealer (newer is less than 5 years old).

- If you get a PPI, it's going to cost you $100-$200. This hurts your bargaining position with the seller, as you are dollar-invested in the purchase after the inspection is done. Also, if you perform a bunch of these, then you will empty your pocketbook really quick. It's a catch-22.

- A PPI should cover everything, and you should have a set of questions or areas that the mechanic will check specifically for you. Also make sure that the owner of the car is okay with this - I would not want my car torn into by a hack mechanic. Tearing down the top end of the engine is *not* acceptable as a PPI, from an owner's standpoint.

- If you don't get the PPI, then make sure you bring along a friend with you to inspect the car. If you are buying the car remotely, make sure that the price is cheap enough to cover unexpected problems. I bought one car off of eBay, and it turned out to have been in an accident and repainted (small fender bender, nothing super major). The seller had 100% feedback with 300 cars sold. He refunded some $$$ for the deal, and the car was cheaper to begin with (BMW wagon).

-Wayne