welding flares, longhood RSR, alignment questions.
 

OK, so I've finally been futzing around with the steel 930 flares I'm attaching to my 72 RSR project, and some concerns have arisen.

I've read a ton of threads about how these things go on, and apparently I've missed the threads with the fine points on flare alignment. These flares WILL sit nicely against the contour of the quarters and front fenders - and at the same time decrease the height of the wheel opening. I'm going to run the car LOW, so I can't lose height in the wheel wells.

I've had to do some significant finageling (how does one spell finagle, anyway? Finaegle, Fenagel, Fenagle?) to make the flares "one" with the contours of the car and maintain the same upper wheel well lip height on the rear. Careful measuring against a customer's 930 verified proper front to rear and overall width at leading and trailing edges (although I allowed an extra 10mm width at the top of the rear fenders for a vintage look - see photo below)

On the front, I've actually had to rotate the leading edge upward about an inch above the top of the turnsignal opening (which would be the lower edge of the fender on an SC, etc.) to get the same height on the wheel opening. No big deal, I'll make a taller lower fender front filler panel to compensate.

Here is where I am gettting cross-eyed: The front flares want to lay vertical (the arch, viewed from the front) ala 930 (of course).
It seems that all the photo reference of the RSRs and STs show the arch rolling in toward the bumper in a significant diagonal, viewed from the front, as in the photo below...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155508032.jpg

It occurred to me that if I knew the width of the original RSR or ST from bumper, I could make my front flares land where they should (using the known width of my stock 72 front bumper as something to work from), and hopefully, get the diagonal taper close to accurate.

I need to achieve a proper symmetry to the front of the car, and I will be flaring my steel bumper to meet the fenders, so I need to be as accurate as possible here.

Anyone have advice/measurements for me on this?

bueller?

I'll take a stab. Looking at the picture you posted, it appears that the front bumper is a narrow body bumper, maybe slightly contoured to the flare? It also seems that they used a rear flare for the front as well? It seems to reproduce that look, you would trim a wedge from the lower portions (front & back) of the flares, so the arch would have the angle pictured above. The reason I'm guessing they used a rear flare is it would probably be easier to heavily trim a rear flare than to add material to the top of a front flare.

hrm... interesting.

so you're thinking there isn't a real difference in the 9300 front flare section and the RSR/ST?

Now I REALLY need sa bumper width measurement....

Not really sure of anything, I'm just going off the limited amount of pictures I could find when I searched to see what you were referring to. I think one could definitely take a 930 flare and make it look like the picture above.

The 930 flares are most definately different from the ST/RSR flares. The 930 have a verticle lip (or more so) and the ST/RSR are more rounded. Also, like eimkeith said the flare arch is not as verticle when viewed from the front, where it intersects the bumper. But ST/RSR flares differ so much between cars it is hard to really know what is exactly correct, if such a thing exists. I don't think the 930 flares are exactly verticle at the front either.

Here are some reference photos (disclaimer: these may not all be "factory" flares):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558520.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558543.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558575.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558622.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558686.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558838.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558857.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558898.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155558951.jpg

.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155559057.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155559245.jpg

these are great examples of the issue!

I wonder if there is a standard width among the fiberglass manufacturers for these bumpers. I'll ask Getty today if I get a second.

65 3/8", it seems... (thanks to Getty Design)

Here's some pics of a real factory RSR with the original steel flares.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201256&highlight=real+r sr

My RSR clone with Fiberglass flares is very vclose to the original.


let me know if you'd like more detail on the flares
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155588582.jpg

Tom - I'd love anything you could give me to help me be overly critical about mine, LOL.

Any chance of measurements and head on and aerial shots?

Here's some pics of my RSR clone.
Let me know what specific measurement you'd like or other shots.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155602938.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604040.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604243.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604304.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604347.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604382.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604419.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604464.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155604503.jpg

Tom , your car is inspiring......:cool: :eek:

+1

wow, threads move alot in a day or so!
 

so, back to this issue.

- had a long talk with boba - who has done significant research on RSRs and STs and the short version is, as Klauke said previously, that there is no single correct RSR flare, as they were often put on by privateers updating racecars to RSR trim, and replaced repeatedly by teams as they were contacted during racing. Also, apparently there were deviations between the the years from Porsche.

In any event, I talked to Getty design, and took some measurements from GT Racing's front RSR fenders (the silhouette of the leading edge where it meets the fender) as apparently Hank pulled from an original RSR for these molds.

As indicated above, there is an obvious taper from the apogee of the wheel arch to the bumper, in both the front and rear. I feel like this is significant to reference for the "feel" of a RSR or ST application. Since my car will "reference" a 72T upgraded to RSR trim/specs in it's past (albeit with modern touches, like G50, turbocharger, etc.), I'll be "encouraging" my 930 steel flares to adopt a posture acceptable to the RSR lines.

That being said, here are a few pictures of the rough mounting of the flares (not entirely massaged into place) with ride height mocked up and wheels/tires borrowed from 78targa's '72 RSR for visual effect (I will runner smaller diameter wheels)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155780064.jpg

mo of dat:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155780182.jpg

and
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155780217.jpg

finally:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1155780294.jpg

looks like it's coming along nicely... I'm jealous:D

thanks!

That's going to be a real beauty! I do hope you'll keep adding pictures to this thread, i want to make sure I don't miss them.

right on, will do!
in fact, it is easier to work on this stuff after loooong hot days when I don't have to be excited by myself... ;^)

Keith

It looks great. Lots of progress made since I last was at the shop.

Tell us more about the engine choice. I read abt a turbocharger... Going with a turbo 3.2?

I also like the wheels... CCW 18s'?

BTW what is that interesting aerodynamic device on the roof :D?

Matteo,

Don't believe anything he says about the engine! Whatever he plans for, you know it will be bigger and better a couple of months from now. I think with a little prodding we can push him towards a 935 setup...

Those wheels do look nice on the car. They are CCW 9's in front and 11's in the rear. I think the chrome looks good against the black. I had them on my Mexico Blue 72 and I don't think they looked as good.

Alot of it might be the way the ride hight is set. Seeing all of that rubber stuffed in the fender flairs and looking ready for business is... well, the way it should be.

Keith, a set of 17's will look great on the car.

Maybe we should convince him in twin turbo-ing a 3.6 Varioram....

LOL, I'm still paying off my humble 3.2... (which is headed to Newfoundland!)

I'll be turbocharging that, with some 3.3 pixtons and a K27 I've got tucked away. (or maybe I'll stuff it in the 65 VW Panel shop van when it is ready?)

If that 3.6 Varioram get's lonely, it can hang out in an all steel early widebody, rest assured!!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156170116.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1156170166.jpg
so this was my fender leading edge solution (and clearly visible is the extent to which I rocked the fender up for wheel clearance) - I cut the lower 3/16 of the 930 flare (bottom edge) and moved it to the lower edge of the original fender. Then, instead of fabricating an extension piece, I made two horizontal cuts and brought the original lower fender metal forward, trimmed and recontoured it appropriately, and tacked it in. Where it was short for blending with the 930 flare, I made a vertical cut and layed the edge back for proper wheel arch shape. I'll make a small filler piece for the resulting gap later.

I still need to fill the gas door and finishe weld the arches before I dismount the fenders, then they will go on the bench for detail work at the front and rear edges.

I love it... Makes me nearly want to go 72 RSR instead of IROC...

Great job!!

keith, that was a nice solution for the front flares. I have to do the same thing to mine, so I'm particularly interested. Were these restoration design flares?

yep!

Good. Me too. What did you do to align your rear flares?

I aligned the rear flares by taking measurements from the jack hole to the leading edge of the wheel opening, and the corner of the taillight opening to the trailing edge of the wheel opening, then from the edge of the fender to repeatable (and findable) point on the chassis. I double checked the torsion bar hole alignment, the pushed the fender up as far as I could get it to go.

Then, I went in today and did the following: (I saw real RSR fender flares at Treffen that have been haunting me)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181597444.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181597463.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181597478.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1181597491.jpg

sorry for the poor quality pictures - I hope you can make out the shape modifications to the old 930 flare - and I hope it is beginning to feel RSR!

Whoa. That's ballsy.

What did you do there? it looks like quite a bit of fab. Wanna come to Colorado for the weekend? My treat. :)

This is on the flare itself, correct? Since the jack hole is on the flare? Or, do you mean the torsion tube itself?

That one seems pretty clear to me...did you have something to use for reference in terms of numbers?

I'm assuming you mean the edge of the flare, yes? Like, the outermost edge (outside) of the flare? What was your "findable" point on the chassis? And were you using a measuring tape, or that weird "alien" device I saw in another posting? :)

When you found those spots, and measured, did you screw in the flare to keep it in the right spot while you did the rest of the measurements?

Thanks for the help...you can tell I'm a little nervous about my fab work. I'd hate to blow it at this point....

I'm hoping I can do it again in reverse for the other side!

Jack hole under door, in rocker.


I run from car to car in the shop! (I'll get numbers for you tomorrow)


Measuring tape. I'm actually measuring to the wheel opening IN the flare - we don't care about anything except where the big hole for the wheel ends up!


Yes - self-tapping sheetmetal screws used to hold it tight to the body - just a couple at first - I usually have to re-adjust the position of the flare to the body. Push a little here, change the shape. Push here, change the shape, etc.
Yeah, that's how I feel about working on customer's cars...

(KIDDING!)

Ok...only a couple more, I promise.

So..of course the jack hole is on the car. That was a brain fart.

So, at this point, you've got a flare that's all set up and ready to weld. Do you do the move where you cut through both the flare and the body, and weld a little bit at a time, cutting away the excess sheetmetal?

I'm finding that one side of my flares lays up very nicely, and the other one is a tough fit. Also...are you keeping the large lip that comes from resto-design, or do you guys cut that off?

Oh...and you never sent me your shirt size. :)

thanks!

I will. Got welding rod?

No, but I have a MIG.